Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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etusch
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Smaller sidepod inlets make me think that engines will run lesser power and because of this they need lesser cooling and more heat during race. If so Honda automatically catch rivals (if they didn't do same)

DFX
DFX
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Joined: 27 May 2016, 19:56

Re: Honda Power Unit

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etusch wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 09:25
Smaller sidepod inlets make me think that engines will run lesser power and because of this they need lesser cooling and more heat during race. If so Honda automatically catch rivals (if they didn't do same)
Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.

techman
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Joined: 09 Jun 2016, 10:25

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.
mercedes will disagree. the merc is the most efficient achiveing 50 percent thermal efficiency. and they have the biggest air intakes

DFX
DFX
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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techman wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 11:32
Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.
mercedes will disagree. the merc is the most efficient achiveing 50 percent thermal efficiency. and they have the biggest air intakes
They can disagree whatever they want, this is thermodynamics.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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That is true.
Other factors are internal aerodynamics, radiator efriciency, desired intercooling temperatures, ERS cooling and gearbox cooling
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j.yank
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Joined: 08 Jul 2015, 13:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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DFX wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 10:50
etusch wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 09:25
Smaller sidepod inlets make me think that engines will run lesser power and because of this they need lesser cooling and more heat during race. If so Honda automatically catch rivals (if they didn't do same)
Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.
Actually he doesn't speak about efficiency but about saving power because of the 3 engines per season rule.

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amho
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Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:15
Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

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DFX wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 10:50
etusch wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 09:25
Smaller sidepod inlets make me think that engines will run lesser power and because of this they need lesser cooling and more heat during race. If so Honda automatically catch rivals (if they didn't do same)
Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.
it's not neccessarily true. here fuel efficiency rules, imagine situations as follow:
engine A extracts 5000 kj from m(g) fuel and it has thermal efficiency of 0.6.
engine B extracts 1000 kj from the same m(gr) fuel and has thermal efficiency of 0.5.
heat rejection in engine A is 2000 kj and heat rejection in engine B is equal to 500 kj.
work (power) in engine A is 3000 kj and in engine B is 500 kj.
so u can see that engine A while has a higher fuel efficiency & power it also rejects more heat.(engine A has a better combustion efficiency).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12ycBt ... pZKd_hbSsL
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit

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amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 22:41
DFX wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 10:50
etusch wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 09:25
Smaller sidepod inlets make me think that engines will run lesser power and because of this they need lesser cooling and more heat during race. If so Honda automatically catch rivals (if they didn't do same)
Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.
it's not neccessarily true. here fuel efficiency rules, imagine situations as follow:
engine A extracts 5000 kj from m(g) fuel and it has thermal efficiency of 0.6.
engine B extracts 1000 kj from the same m(gr) fuel and has thermal efficiency of 0.5.
heat rejection in engine A is 2000 kj and heat rejection in engine B is equal to 500 kj.
work (power) in engine A is 3000 kj and in engine B is 500 kj.
so u can see that engine A while has a higher fuel efficiency & power it also rejects more heat.(engine A has a better combustion efficiency).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12ycBt ... pZKd_hbSsL
Uhm thermal efficiency is work divided by energy available in fuel rather than heat extracted in combustion.

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amho
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Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:15
Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mudflap wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 22:53
amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 22:41
DFX wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 10:50


Completely the opposite. Less effient engines needs more cooling than higher effient ones.
it's not neccessarily true. here fuel efficiency rules, imagine situations as follow:
engine A extracts 5000 kj from m(g) fuel and it has thermal efficiency of 0.6.
engine B extracts 1000 kj from the same m(gr) fuel and has thermal efficiency of 0.5.
heat rejection in engine A is 2000 kj and heat rejection in engine B is equal to 500 kj.
work (power) in engine A is 3000 kj and in engine B is 500 kj.
so u can see that engine A while has a higher fuel efficiency & power it also rejects more heat.(engine A has a better combustion efficiency).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12ycBt ... pZKd_hbSsL
Uhm thermal efficiency is work divided by energy available in fuel rather than heat extracted in combustion.
check it: (http://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/ ... efficiency)
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit

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amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:03
Mudflap wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 22:53
amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 22:41


it's not neccessarily true. here fuel efficiency rules, imagine situations as follow:
engine A extracts 5000 kj from m(g) fuel and it has thermal efficiency of 0.6.
engine B extracts 1000 kj from the same m(gr) fuel and has thermal efficiency of 0.5.
heat rejection in engine A is 2000 kj and heat rejection in engine B is equal to 500 kj.
work (power) in engine A is 3000 kj and in engine B is 500 kj.
so u can see that engine A while has a higher fuel efficiency & power it also rejects more heat.(engine A has a better combustion efficiency).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12ycBt ... pZKd_hbSsL
Uhm thermal efficiency is work divided by energy available in fuel rather than heat extracted in combustion.
check it: (http://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/ ... efficiency)
yes Qh is the fuel heating value times fuel mass. It is identical for both engines in your example. Since the first engine extracts 6 times more work from the same quantity of fuel your efficiency numbers can't be right.

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amho
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Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mudflap wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:08
amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:03
Mudflap wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 22:53


Uhm thermal efficiency is work divided by energy available in fuel rather than heat extracted in combustion.
check it: (http://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/ ... efficiency)
yes Qh is the fuel heating value times fuel mass. It is identical for both engines in your example. Since the first engine extracts 6 times more work from the same quantity of fuel your efficiency numbers can't be right.
Yes these numbers are too imaginary but I wanted to indicate that having higher thermal efficiency does not neccessarily means less heat ejection. Consider Qh for engine A & B equal to 700 and 500 kj for a given fuel and thermal efficiency of 0.5 and 0.4 respectively then A dumps 350 kj and B does 300 kj. Here in F1 if consider all engine have near the same combustion eff. then the one has better thermal efficiency it dumps less heat.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Honda Power Unit

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well I've drawn back many times from saying this ........

thermal efficiency is not another name for overall efficiency of a heat engine
(we don't need telling that a heat engines job is to turn heat into work)

thermal efficiency is the efficiency of transformation of heat into work in the combustion chamber and not beyond it
(which too many wrongly insist on calling combustion efficiency)

but to allow harmony and understanding to flow .....
thermal efficiency can reasonably be called indicated thermal efficiency
and overall efficiency can reasonably be called brake thermal efficiency

simple !
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 25 Feb 2018, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.

63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit

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amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:59
Mudflap wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:08
yes Qh is the fuel heating value times fuel mass. It is identical for both engines in your example. Since the first engine extracts 6 times more work from the same quantity of fuel your efficiency numbers can't be right.
Yes these numbers are too imaginary but I wanted to indicate that having higher thermal efficiency does not neccessarily means less heat ejection. Consider Qh for engine A & B equal to 700 and 500 kj for a given fuel and thermal efficiency of 0.5 and 0.4 respectively then A dumps 350 kj and B does 300 kj. Here in F1 if consider all engine have near the same combustion eff. then the one has better thermal efficiency it dumps less heat.
Not imaginary, they were objectively wrong.
Since we are debating F1 engines what is the point of comparing engines of different fuels or different flow rates ?
DFX's statement was spot on.

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amho
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Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:15
Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mudflap wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 00:13
amho wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:59
Mudflap wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 23:08


yes Qh is the fuel heating value times fuel mass. It is identical for both engines in your example. Since the first engine extracts 6 times more work from the same quantity of fuel your efficiency numbers can't be right.
Yes these numbers are too imaginary but I wanted to indicate that having higher thermal efficiency does not neccessarily means less heat ejection. Consider Qh for engine A & B equal to 700 and 500 kj for a given fuel and thermal efficiency of 0.5 and 0.4 respectively then A dumps 350 kj and B does 300 kj. Here in F1 if consider all engine have near the same combustion eff. then the one has better thermal efficiency it dumps less heat.
Not imaginary, they were objectively wrong.
Since we are debating F1 engines what is the point of comparing engines of different fuels or different flow rates ?
DFX's statement was spot on.
I don't want to elongate chat but I didn't say anything about different fuel and flow, read once again carefully. Bye
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 00:11
well I've drawn back many times from saying this ........

thermal efficiency is not another name for overall efficiency of a heat engine
(we don't need telling that a heat engines job is to turn heat into work)

thermal efficiency is the efficiency of transformation of heat into work in the combustion chamber and not beyond it
(which too many wrongly insist on calling combustion efficiency)

but to allow harmony and understanding to flow .....
thermal efficiency can reasonably be called indicated thermal efficiency
and overall efficiency can reasonably be called brake thermal efficiency

simple !
Which one is the one car makers like to advertise though? Brake thermal or indicated?
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