2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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bill shoe
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:08 am

PhillipM wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:21 pm
Williams has been trying that strategy for years and all it's given them is drivers that had no input on how to push the car forwards and constant slide towards the back of the grid.
But they're still there and still racing, despite a budget that only comes from income generated from the racing itself (sponsorship, FOM income, driver money, etc.). I think Williams and FI are the highest two teams that genuinely race on the income that's generated by their ~ current and previous-year racing. The top 3 teams (Merc, Ferrari, RB) and the midfield Tier-1 (Haas, Renault, McLaren) get financial inputs from outside the F1 economy.

Having said that, it would be nice if I didn't have to justify Williams performance like that.

makecry
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by makecry » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:09 am

bill shoe wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:08 am
PhillipM wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:21 pm
Williams has been trying that strategy for years and all it's given them is drivers that had no input on how to push the car forwards and constant slide towards the back of the grid.
But they're still there and still racing, despite a budget that only comes from income generated from the racing itself (sponsorship, FOM income, driver money, etc.). I think Williams and FI are the highest two teams that genuinely race on the income that's generated by their ~ current and previous-year racing. The top 3 teams (Merc, Ferrari, RB) and the midfield Tier-1 (Haas, Renault, McLaren) get financial inputs from outside the F1 economy.

Having said that, it would be nice if I didn't have to justify Williams performance like that.
Haas is not a midfield tier 1 team.They have no where the budget of McLaren or Renault.

Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Raleigh » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:23 am

Haas have one of the lowest budgets on the grid (we are talking a Sauber or Manor budget) because of their extensive co-operation with Ferrari, also they outsource most of their construction which is cheaper than running dedicated facilities just for an F1 team.

They could be compared to Toro Rosso except Toro Rosso is used by Red Bull to develop not just drivers but also engineering talent, therefore STR has a focus on their own designs instead of just copying Red Bull as closely as the rules allow.

There's really no comparison between Haas and a true independent team like Williams that designs and builds everything themselves.

dren
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by dren » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:47 pm

I was expecting the Williams to be more competitive than it is, even with their pair of drivers.
Honda!

Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Raleigh » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:38 pm

dren wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:47 pm
I was expecting the Williams to be more competitive than it is, even with their pair of drivers.
You can look at the times in different ways. For example Williams best time in testing was the slowest of all teams, behind even Sauber which sounds pretty dire. On the other hand, a Williams on Soft tires is apparently only 8/10ths down on a Mercedes running Ultrasofts, or 1.2 seconds down on a Red Bull running Hypersofts, and if you can believe the tire gaps Pirelli has released that actually puts Williams 2/10th down on Mercedes and 6/10ths up on Red Bull (which would be crazy, I'm not saying that :lol:).

7 teams set their best times on Hypersofts, 1 Ultrasoft, 1 Supersoft, and Williams alone did their best time on Soft tires.

Basically don't read too much into testing times :wink:

dren
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by dren » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:53 pm

Sure I do, when proper analysis is done concerning the times of stints. The Williams isn't looking so hot.
Honda!

Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Raleigh » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:06 pm

If you've made or found stint time breakdowns for teams I would honestly love to see them (not being sarcastic or saying "prove it").

munudeges
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by munudeges » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:02 pm

Williams are in for a long hard season. A car that is distinctly underwhelming, they're already making excuses for and that they have tried to hide the performance of and two drivers who are there to provide cash despite desperate protestations to the contrary. It does not bode well.

JonoNic
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by JonoNic » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:08 pm

munudeges wrote:Williams are in for a long hard season. A car that is distinctly underwhelming, they're already making excuses for and that they have tried to hide the performance of and two drivers who are there to provide cash despite desperate protestations to the contrary. It does not bode well.
Let's say they do go down. It could be an opportunity for a new manufacturer to enter... Williams are almost certainly a team of good/excellent staff that are cash strapped which could make it viable for a prospective manufacturer.

Always find the gap then use it.

Sevach
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Sevach » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:15 pm


Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Raleigh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:13 pm

Always take a bit of time to understand big changes to the car, last year when the first updates arrived the car went from running in the midfield to right down at the back with Sauber. After a few races Williams started recovering and by the end of season were more or less on the pace of Force India.

Vasconia
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Vasconia » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:46 pm

JonoNic wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:08 pm
munudeges wrote:Williams are in for a long hard season. A car that is distinctly underwhelming, they're already making excuses for and that they have tried to hide the performance of and two drivers who are there to provide cash despite desperate protestations to the contrary. It does not bode well.
Let's say they do go down. It could be an opportunity for a new manufacturer to enter... Williams are almost certainly a team of good/excellent staff that are cash strapped which could make it viable for a prospective manufacturer.
I hope Paddy can contribute to build a better chasis because the last ones have been mediocre and with these drivers I feel hopeless. A new manufacturer would be more than welcome, another additon to the current roster and a good amount of money which would help the team to focus on what is actually important.

Stalker1
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Stalker1 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:19 pm

PlatinumZealot gave some insight about why FW-41 struggled in Barcelona on the previous page. After watching some footage from the test days, I am not anymore suprised, why their times were so bad. The car understeered a lot and neither Stroll nor Sirotkin did not find confidence behind the wheels. What worries is that they had six days to find solution and they did not, because Lowe admitted they got lost while searching the right set-up. What does that even mean?

I must admit, like many other fans, I thought that under Lowes supervision Williams could finally again build a car which is quick out of box.

marmer
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by marmer » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:11 pm

Stalker1 wrote:PlatinumZealot gave some insight about why FW-41 struggled in Barcelona on the previous page. After watching some footage from the test days, I am not anymore suprised, why their times were so bad. The car understeered a lot and neither Stroll nor Sirotkin did not find confidence behind the wheels. What worries is that they had six days to find solution and they did not, because Lowe admitted they got lost while searching the right set-up. What does that even mean?

I must admit, like many other fans, I thought that under Lowes supervision Williams could finally again build a car which is quick out of box.
Generally getting lost in setup is caused by the car not responding to changes as their data expects. A simple version would be you put more front wing on the car it gets more aero at the front better front end. So if drivers are moaning of understeer that would be a logical way to go And the car is not improving.
This example which might not be what's the issue with the Williams but can be applied to any other part of the car really.
Just to explain why it could be making it worse if the front wing has a greater angle of attack it alters the air flow over the rest of the car so what they make on the front might be out weighed by what happens to the rest of the car.

Personally to stop understeer I would take aero from the back as this doesn't affect the rest of the car and also would increase top speed. The only downside is more sensitive back end but if you have understeer your back end shouldn't be that bad to start with. Unless you have a dog of a car

Mr Brooksy
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Mr Brooksy » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:57 am

I think Lowe has said that the car is understeering and oversteering and it is not consistent. My uneducated guess is that this would be very hard to make changes to the setup to combat.

A consistently understeering car would be easier to troubleshoot, as would be a consistently oversteering car. But when the balance swings back and forth seemingly randomly, I can't imagine the headache that would be to diagnose and rectify!

My concern is that over the recent years, Williams has struggled to get their head around cars that haven't been straightforward. 2013 was a disaster when they simply couldn't get their heads around the coanda (sorry for spelling) exhaust, 2016 then the upgraded front wing simply made the car worse even though the wind tunnel said it should have been a great step forward. And they've had big issues since 2014 with low speed grip.

Can Paddy and Dirk get the team to understand a complex car? I hope so, but I fear it will just take a long time losing us the step forward we were trying to gain in the short term.
WilliamsF1 fan since 1989