2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
techman
-5
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:25 am

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by techman » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 pm

A Q mode using energy special harvest is interesting. cant wait to see the effect

etusch
17
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by etusch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:25 pm

Honda has had a good performance last year, for example first 6-7 lap of Sepang circuit. They couldn't use that mode because of hight consumption or reliability. Then some comments were on this forum that FİA banned mentioned mode of Honda.
I believe that Q mode is not completely rely ERS but it may be mainly ERS and less from İCE. We already know that Honda developed on reliability wise and if same rate of development on consumption side they can be good on race. Q mode is off course important but race mode is more important and I hope real development lies there

henry
73
User avatar
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by henry » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:44 pm

loner wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:59 pm
what you saw in testing week 2 which hit 324.2 is what you will see in Australia PU wise ..later on during the season i assume the PU which hit 333.3 will be used after they increase its reliability perhaps performance as well.
thats my own take about first week weird PU changing feast
To get from the lower to the higher speed from power alone would require 8% more power, all from the ICE, perhaps as much as 10% from the ICE. That seems like a big ask.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.

Revs84
11
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by Revs84 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:59 pm

Hi guys. This is my first post here, although I've been following all Honda threads very closely for a long time.

I'm really looking forward now for the 2018 season and so far have been cautiously optimistic. I do think that we'll see some surprises this year so can't wait.

In the meantime wanted to share a great clip detailing the STR13 which I thought I would share; although I'm sure that most of you have already seen it ;-) Thanks to Cronos Studios for their great work!



Keep up the enthusiasm and love for this sport... Can't wait to start participating myself in these threads :-)

loner
6
User avatar
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by loner » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:12 pm

All speed around 330 and above are due to tow/slipstream. Just check the speed trap figures from quali and race and its clear even Merc with magic quali mode does less than 325 max.
i can't believe this .. for example HAAS hit 336 Mercedes, Ferrari, FI, Williams hit above 330 as well so all this teams for a tow \ slipstream ?!!
henry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:44 pm
loner wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:59 pm
what you saw in testing week 2 which hit 324.2 is what you will see in Australia PU wise ..later on during the season i assume the PU which hit 333.3 will be used after they increase its reliability perhaps performance as well.
thats my own take about first week weird PU changing feast
To get from the lower to the higher speed from power alone would require 8% more power, all from the ICE, perhaps as much as 10% from the ICE. That seems like a big ask.
explain this pic then
Image

iam thinking of 2 versions of PU the starter of the season one and then the more powerful one they tested in first week but not ready until later reliability wise , Tost said they will have a very competitive car towards the last races sure he know something and saw something tested in reality on the track.
guys there is already a confirmation they tested 3 PU in test week 1.
It Tolls for Thee.

McMika98
3
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by McMika98 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:36 pm

Just go to FAI website and look at the barcelona data from 2017, highest speed in quali is 226 by Vettel. Emphasise again that this is at max power. Then look at race speed and 80% of field is around 330. Thats just a fact.

Although interesting that on the youtube video by Cronos, you can see low drag front wing with only three thin elements tested by Toro Rosso. On final day they definitely had a high downforce wing.
Would be nice to know the hp difference between the two versions but we will find out soon.

etusch
17
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by etusch » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:20 am

Revs84 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:59 pm
Hi guys. This is my first post here, although I've been following all Honda threads very closely for a long time.

I'm really looking forward now for the 2018 season and so far have been cautiously optimistic. I do think that we'll see some surprises this year so can't wait.

In the meantime wanted to share a great clip detailing the STR13 which I thought I would share; although I'm sure that most of you have already seen it ;-) Thanks to Cronos Studios for their great work!

https://youtu.be/14txVlJWTNc

Keep up the enthusiasm and love for this sport... Can't wait to start participating myself in these threads :-)
10th sec of this video very interesting. :lol: :lol:

tcooper27
1
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by tcooper27 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:22 pm

McMika98 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:36 pm
Just go to FAI website and look at the barcelona data from 2017, highest speed in quali is 226 by Vettel. Emphasise again that this is at max power. Then look at race speed and 80% of field is around 330. Thats just a fact.
Sometimes people state "max speed" to be the speed at start/finish line rather than the end of the straight. In Barcelona the start/finish max speed is much lower than true max speed.

In general we can't really talk about which engine produced what speed. The amount of drag and aero setup has is going to have way more influence. Take for instance day 1 and 2 vs day 3 and 4 of test 2. On day 3 and 4 TR ran a higher downforce (higher drag) setup and speeds drop about 10kmph just from that change.
Last edited by tcooper27 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marti_EF3
34
User avatar
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by Marti_EF3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:54 pm

Berger: "Honda's technical director is really good"
Once the preseason is over, it is time for evaluations and three characters have offered theirs regarding the new Toro Rosso-Honda association. The ex-drivers of Formula 1 Gerhard Berger and Hans Joachim Stuck have expressed their opinion on this alliance and also the ex-boss of Sauber, Monisha Kaltenborn.
If there is something that Toro Rosso has shown in the preseason, it is its reliability with Honda, after completing a long mileage in Barcelona, ​​a situation very different from the last three winters with McLaren. The ex-driver of Formula 1 Gerhard Berger, who rode engines of the Japanese brand between 1990 and 1992 when he was driving for Woking, relies on this association.

The testimony of Berger becomes important because he was the last driver to get a victory with McLaren-Honda, in 1992 in Adelaide, with the MP4 / 7A. "You'll see how it works," Berger said in statements for Servus TV.


During his years with Honda, at the beginning of the 90s, Berger's engineer was Toyoharu Tanabe, recently appointed technical director of Honda F1, so the Austrian is now happy to see this professional in the position and is confident in his abilities to make improve the Faenza.

"Honda is a company with a great sports culture and I had to smile a little when I saw that my old engineer, who worked in my car for three years, is now Honda's technical director, it's really good, so I can not imagine that To work with Toro Rosso and Franz at all, to have Red Bull backing up is a great decision, and in the long run it will be the right thing to do ", he added.


He has also offered his impressions the ex-driver of F1 of the 70s Hans Joachim Stuck, who is positive about Toro Rosso. "The winter has been long, they have learned from the mistakes of recent years and in Toro Rosso they can trust the Japanese," said Stuck.

Finally, Sauber's former boss, Monisha Kaltenborn, who had left before the Swiss team, had reached an agreement for the Japanese to motorize his team, but then Fréderic Vasseur, his replacement, canceled it. The Indian says that Franz Tost did well in carrying out this movement.

"I understand Franz very well, that's what I was thinking, in fact we had the deal, but in the end it turned out differently, it would have been something very good for Sauber," Kaltenborn has said to finish.
http://soymotor.com/noticias/berger-el- ... eno-946790

ispano6
19
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by ispano6 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:12 pm

GoranF1 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:23 pm
Sayeman wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:56 am
GoranF1 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:40 am

I am not, i am just glad Mclaren is not working whit this once great company.
We are glad Honda is not working anymore with this once great company who have been suffering from mediocrity looooong before even Honda came along.
in 2012 Mclaren won many races, Honda won 30 years ago and chickend out of F1 3 times in the meanwhile.
In the meantime Honda have won several other championships and races in motorsport including SuperGT, BTCC, Rally, MotoGP, Indy. There's no denying that McLarens best years ever were powered by Honda. McLaren was able to get 6th in the constructors championship in 2016 and 2017 was a setback year obviously due to a different engine direction but this year should see STR 6th or better.

Roostfactor
5
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:50 am
Location: Texas

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by Roostfactor » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:24 am

Hi guys. This is my first post here, although I've been following all Honda threads very closely for a long time.

I'm really looking forward now for the 2018 season and so far have been cautiously optimistic. I do think that we'll see some surprises this year so can't wait.

In the meantime wanted to share a great clip detailing the STR13 which I thought I would share; although I'm sure that most of you have already seen it ;-) Thanks to Cronos Studios for their great work!

https://youtu.be/14txVlJWTNc

Keep up the enthusiasm and love for this sport... Can't wait to start participating myself in these threads :-)
I'm sorry, I can't help myself. Look at 8 seconds into the video....The look on Eric's face is like the man watching his hot ex walk by...."damn I wish I still had her"!

Revs84
11
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by Revs84 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:43 am

That's when they hadn't even started testing. Imagine their faces, especially Alonso's, when a Honda Powered Toro Rosso flies past him on the straight :-D

It WILL happen at some point, especially if Mc keep running the same levels of downforce. Honda is closer than ever to Renault, and I do expect them to leapfrog them by the debut of the 2nd engine.

Sayeman
38
User avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:18 am
Location: Bangladesh

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by Sayeman » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:05 am

Revs84 wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:43 am
That's when they hadn't even started testing. Imagine their faces, especially Alonso's, when a Honda Powered Toro Rosso flies past him on the straight :-D

It WILL happen at some point, especially if Mc keep running the same levels of downforce. Honda is closer than ever to Renault, and I do expect them to leapfrog them by the debut of the 2nd engine.
Not sure they will leapfrog them to be honest. maybe reach similar power levels. Lets not be too optimistic
Never Give up.

Revs84
11
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by Revs84 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:29 am

Going by the argument that every manufacturer is constantly developing their engine that would be true. However one has to factor in each team's rate of development, particularly considering any limitations faced at any particular point in time.

Going by the latter, the indications are that Honda are capable of faster development, and that's why I have such expectations. Although it has to be said, that such progress would also depend on the progress of the chassis and development of drivers through the season.

But you're right, I'm being optimistic at this point, however, after 3 years of constant disappointment some optimism doesn't hurt :-)

HPD
177
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post by HPD » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:52 pm

Many teams have complained about the late decision to Halo. Was the problem maybe smaller for Toro Rosso, because you had to change everything anyway?
James Key: [laughs] To a certain extent, yes. When we had the final confirmation of the Honda plan, we had to reschedule anyway. That helped a little. Of course you can argue that you can do it in any case by just pushing the deadlines backwards, but it costs money and you have less time to optimize. You always have a schedule that expects the fastest car with the best optimization time and the best cost. Everything has changed, but that allowed us to easily integrate the Halo into the later chassis deadline. Of course, Halo was also a challenge, but not as big as changing the engine.

You mentioned that the collaboration came too late to be able to bear fruitful factory team results. But are there any details on the engine that they could influence?
James Key: There are a few small things that Honda has been able to change for us, but also some things we've changed for them. We have already talked about developmental steps that work for both sides. They have already been able to do some work and more over the course of the season. Our approach with them is to give them the flexibility they need to focus on engine development. We do not want to give them too many restrictions through the chassis. As a result, there were no late changes for her, which was very important. We'd better make some compromises, but then benefit from a better engine. That's an important balance to find.

What was the main reason for the new design of the rear axle: aerodynamics or kinematics?
James Key: Slightly more aerodynamics. But we realized last year that we were not too far away with our philosophy. Of course, the suspension has to be adapted to the tires and this is a little guessing game despite the Abu Dhabi test. Nevertheless, we did not feel that we had a problem on the kinematics side. So the redesign was more about the inner components, dampers, springs and so on. There were also some clarifications from the FIA. The system had to become simpler. Still, we were dissatisfied with some systems we had last year and wanted a reset. So it's pretty much different than last year.

One notable change this year is the nose design. Has this only aerodynamic reasons or have the tighter crash requirements changed something?
James Key: That has purely aerodynamic reasons. It is always difficult to pass a crash test, because the requirements for it are very different than for an aerodynamic part - and that's actually the nose rather. It's always a balancing act to get that done. The shape of the nose is mainly dominated by the aerodynamic requirements.

The old nose design was only one season. Did you find that it was the wrong way?
James Key: That's part of the natural evolution. We were satisfied with the nose last year. During development, however, the shapes change slightly and the way the front works changes a bit. This form seems to deliver the best overall performance in our development. The nose is a combination of things. Even she does not do that much, she just has to be there. Front wings and pylons are more the sensitive areas. The nose design is more about how to solve these things.

With the narrow nose came in the past year, a new concept in the front suspension. In combination, it almost looked like a copy of Mercedes. At a nose it has not decreased, at a suspension. Are not the parts hanging together?
James Key: No, not at all. The narrow nose philosophy we have seen in the years before. A few parts of the aerodynamics that we had did not make it to the new car, but their philosophy has remained. Some areas on the fron wing are very influential, especially inside, near the pylons. That was also in the last year. It was a little different, but similar in principle. We looked at all the options and agreed that the narrow nose gave us characteristics that we liked last year. But it had nothing to do with the front suspension. Nose and pylons are more responsible for how the inner part of the front wing works, the suspension has more to do with how the outer part of the front wing works. We changed our nose this year, but the suspension is still very similar.

Another, not so obvious topic is wheelbase and tilt. What have you changed here?
James Key: The wheelbase is longer. The wheelbase is changed for various reasons. One reason is the aerodynamics, but it is also related to the layout of the car. Likewise, the natural weight distribution is related to the wheelbase. It is a combination of various factors that determines a wheelbase, the main reason being the aerodynamics. We had a shorter wheelbase last year and now we're probably in midfield. Weight distribution, architecture and aerodynamics were the reasons for us. Most cars got longer, so we followed the trend. At the inclination we were already relatively high, but with us the inclination was not highest. That too is a trend and we followed him a bit further. I think we will see more and more.

How big was the advantage of being used to late engine changes in the past?
James Key: The advantage was big [laughs]. It was not easy even at V8 times. But with these power units, it's incredibly complicated. There is an awful lot to consider. The physical design of being able to put everything in the right place plays an important role. But there are many other structural elements, such as the entire control units and cooling circuits, of which there are quite a few in these hybrid engines. Technically, this makes it very complicated. We had worse than a decision in September. Since we had experience as a team here, we were able to handle it efficiently. It was not a big problem for us.

The biggest difference between Renault and Honda in architecture is certainly the turbo concept. At Honda sits the compressor - as with Mercedes - at the front of the engine and the turbocharger behind it, at Renault turbo and supercharger are one unit. McLaren's chief technology officer Tim Goss says he prefers Renault packaging. You probably think differently now ...
James Key: That's very diplomatic of him [laughs]. What else should one say? We have also experienced both variants. There are both advantages and disadvantages. The supercharged packaging in front of the engine is a bit simpler than with both parts in the back. With more space in front, it is easier to find gas volumes and to lay certain lines. The oil tank is also less restricted. At the rear, it is more difficult, because there jams all the heat. You also have to keep in mind that the turbo is closer to the gearbox. The exhaust is further back, which additionally increases the temperature at the transmission. On the chassis side, there is pros and cons, but our backside is much cleaner now.

We now have more space and freedom behind the engine for suspension parts and so on. It's a bit narrower at the front, but Honda has found a fantastic arrangement where the parts are housed very well in the little space they have. It was not the compromise we feared. The downside we had was that we could not do that from the outset for 2018 with Honda. But we can do that for 2019 and we are looking for ways to further optimize it. I prefer the Honda approach. Not only because we have Honda now, but because they have some great features around this engine philosophy. It is a tidy approach.

You mentioned that the collaboration came too late to be able to bear fruitful factory team results. But are there any details on the engine that they could influence?
James Key: There are a few small things that Honda has been able to change for us, but also some things we've changed for them. We have already talked about developmental steps that work for both sides. They have already been able to do some work and more over the course of the season. Our approach with them is to give them the flexibility they need to focus on engine development. We do not want to give them too many restrictions through the chassis. As a result, there were no late changes for her, which was very important. We'd better make some compromises, but then benefit from a better engine. That's an important balance to find.

They have already mentioned the transmission. The transmission is not only gearbox, but also houses suspension components of the rear axle and the articulation points of control arms and pull lever. Toro Rosso builds the gearbox itself and uses the innards of Red Bull. How big is the advantage of being able to design the rear axle yourself?
James Key: In any case, it's an advantage. The entire transmission has been redesigned for the Honda Split Turbo installation and other things. It allowed us to revise the entire architecture at the rear, which was not bad. The rear suspension was a new development anyway. The result is a completely new gearbox. It may have been even more critical from a time ago than the chassis, but the guys did a great job getting it together so quickly. This helps if you are suddenly in such a situation because you have a late engine decision. Then you have to be in control of these things around it. This control we have with the gearbox now. That's why we were able to adjust that so quickly. The gearbox we had was quite flexible, so it was not a fundamental redesign. We could adapt it to the principles we already had.

The side boxes look very similar to last year, the airbox has become much larger. Does that mean the Honda engine needs more cooling than the Renault?
James Key: No, I would rather say that the cooling requirements are different because there are different ways of cooling certain circuits in the engine. The side boxes have even become a bit smaller, but they have kept their shape. We wanted to see how the air flow changes as we cool more about the airbox and less about the side boxes. But here, too, we are following a trend of the past years. The 2015 coolers (with Ferrari engine) were quite large, but it also depends a lot on how the engine looks like, whether the space above the engine is a good place to arrange cooling systems. We have managed to stay as much as possible with the shape of the Honda engine. The layout is not dissimilar to the solution we had planned for the Renault engine.

https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/form ... interview/