Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:30 am

Sierra117 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:16 am
Is there a post you could link where one could read about how the different sidepod implementations work? Sidepods is the one area I need to learn more about.
Sure thing:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ferrari- ... vwcA%3D%3D

These two articles from March 2017 originated from some discussions we had on this forum, a year before any other tech journo gave his in-depth opinion on how these side pods work. Just so you know you are in the right place on this forum. :)

ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by ScrewCaptain27 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:22 pm

Via Racecar Engineering:
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:09 pm

Mercedes need to now be more creative in their designs. They have done a good job of refining conventional concepts but i believe these conceptsare approaching limiting returns. Look at the innovative ideas on the RedBull and Ferrari; those are working the air in places Merc aren't.

ferkan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by ferkan » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:40 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:09 pm
Mercedes need to now be more creative in their designs. They have done a good job of refining conventional concepts but i believe these conceptsare approaching limiting returns. Look at the innovative ideas on the RedBull and Ferrari; those are working the air in places Merc aren't.
Merc car looks so refined that I don't even know where can they add another little winglet tbh.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by ScrewCaptain27 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:21 pm

Like I said earlier, their whole aero concept looks to be essentially at its maximum development potential. Unless they can surprise us like they did in Spain last year...
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:47 pm

New information on the car: Toto said that the root cause of the car's problems is keeping the tyres in the sweetspot and he still believes that has the potential to be the fastest by some margin once they get the set up right.

Blaze1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:00 pm

Translated: "The car is more of a Diva than the W08!"

mantikos
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by mantikos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:16 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:09 pm
Mercedes need to now be more creative in their designs. They have done a good job of refining conventional concepts but i believe these conceptsare approaching limiting returns. Look at the innovative ideas on the RedBull and Ferrari; those are working the air in places Merc aren't.
Conventional.concepts became conventional because Mercedes made them conventional/others copied what Merc did.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Morteza » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:09 pm
Mercedes need to now be more creative in their designs. They have done a good job of refining conventional concepts but i believe these conceptsare approaching limiting returns. Look at the innovative ideas on the RedBull and Ferrari; those are working the air in places Merc aren't.
Has Mercedes introduced anything new/innovative to their car other than the big update at Barcelona last year? The way I remember it W08 was pretty much the same after Barcelona update (some small changes due to different tracks). W09 is basically a refined W08, but with not much difference (the biggest change is the suspension mountings, I guess).
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

JasonF1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by JasonF1 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:40 am

I wonder if Mercedes has reached the dead end with that car. Toto did imply that the W09 would have a pace advantage if they could hit the sweet spot, 6-8 tenths is a lot of time to find though. It is also amazing how Ferrari has drastically changed their concepts and it's been smooth sailing from the get go.
Last edited by JasonF1 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 am

Morteza wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:09 pm
Mercedes need to now be more creative in their designs. They have done a good job of refining conventional concepts but i believe these conceptsare approaching limiting returns. Look at the innovative ideas on the RedBull and Ferrari; those are working the air in places Merc aren't.
Has Mercedes introduced anything new/innovative to their car other than the big update at Barcelona last year? The way I remember it W08 was pretty much the same after Barcelona update (some small changes due to different tracks). W09 is basically a refined W08, but with not much difference (the biggest change is the suspension mountings, I guess).
Yup the only "new" thing I see on the W09 is the "Steve Urkel waistline" and even that is basically a refinement.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by zibby43 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:31 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 am
Morteza wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:09 pm
Mercedes need to now be more creative in their designs. They have done a good job of refining conventional concepts but i believe these conceptsare approaching limiting returns. Look at the innovative ideas on the RedBull and Ferrari; those are working the air in places Merc aren't.
Has Mercedes introduced anything new/innovative to their car other than the big update at Barcelona last year? The way I remember it W08 was pretty much the same after Barcelona update (some small changes due to different tracks). W09 is basically a refined W08, but with not much difference (the biggest change is the suspension mountings, I guess).
Yup the only "new" thing I see on the W09 is the "Steve Urkel waistline" and even that is basically a refinement.
Here are just a few of the most obvious/noticeable changes on the W09 (re: the car's "visible" surfaces):

New front wing (revised outwash tunnels, etc.), new "default" high-downforce rear wing, new rear suspension, new nose and revised "cape," tweaks to the various cascades in elements in the bargeboard area

That's just off the top of my head. I think there's been a huge over-reaction to the qualifying performance in China. Merc was looking dominant in FP1 and strong in FP2. They obviously took a wrong setup turn that killed their ability to work the tires. Hamilton looked most affected, as Bottas was pretty handy in the race.

No one was sounding the death knell for the W09 after Barcelona (a very well-rounded track) or Melbourne (more of an outlier). Quite the opposite, in fact. People thought the car was more dominant than ever. Merc has some work to do in understanding how their car behaves with the new tires.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by aral » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:36 am

This is a reminder that this thread is about the actual car. Posts about performance of drivers etc belong in the team thread.

Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:40 am

Morteza wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 am
Has Mercedes introduced anything new/innovative to their car other than the big update at Barcelona last year? The way I remember it W08 was pretty much the same after Barcelona update (some small changes due to different tracks). W09 is basically a refined W08, but with not much difference (the biggest change is the suspension mountings, I guess).
They redesigned bodywork and vanes in front of barge boards in a way Ferrari ran them from the start of 2017, most likely to produce different flow structures to provide better diffuser sealing with high rake in mind for the future. Can't remember if RB13 used these as well last year, but all 3 cars have them now and many others as well. Other stuff is constant refinement, diffuser being an exemplary piece.

W09:
Image
W08:

Image

JasonF1 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:40 am
I wonder if Mercedes has reached the dead end with that car. Toto did imply that the W09 would have a pace advantage if they could hit the sweet spot, 6-8 tenths is a lot of time to find though. It is also amazing how Ferrari has drastically changed their concepts and it's been smooth sailing from the get go.
Dead end is nowhere near for any of these cars, barge boards and deflectors have so much room for more aero bits and overall refinement. The question remains, however, how fast and how much can more performance come from these cars. And it will be answered during the season.

In this sense, I feel Mercedes is hindered in side pod area. Barge boards, wings and diffusers will be updated on all cars, bits and pieces as well, but Mercedes will still have more air coming on top of side pods than RB and Ferrari, less air coming around them (and over diffuser) and bigger frontal surface which is always more drag. Unless they make a drastic change mid-season, of course. But it seems to be too much work to do in less than half a year, it sure proved to be so for Red Bull.

To be fair to them, it looks like they really needed to focus as much as possible on suspension and didn't want to change their aero approach too much. Look how that turned out for Williams.

How has Ferrari drastically changed their concept? :) If you mean extended wheelbase, that's far from drastic change. And for the record, it was far from smooth sailing in winter testing and Australia. (Ferrari OT over. :) )

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by ScrewCaptain27 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:39 pm

2017-2018 PU packaging comparison (F1i.com):
Image
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian