2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

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f1316
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by f1316 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:01 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:00 am
f1316 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 am
Fulcrum wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:41 am


2 laps fresher? Describing that strategy as 'working' is a bit of a stretch.

The differential in performance between the two vehicles was low, and the differential in tyres was also low. Vettel's best chance to pass was the Raikkonen roadblock. He was already beginning to fall out of DRS range at parts of the track when the SC was triggered.
Without the safety car, I think many - if not all bar Raikkonen - might have pitted again and/or had to defend from those who did.

Vettel’s tyres are hard to judge with the damage to both them and the car caused by the Verstappen incident, but Bottas’ had all but gone by the end - hence even Kimi catching him hand over fist. The Red Bulls, in my opinion, would have really struggled to get to the end quickly on the mediums they put on lap 18.

All of which is just to say I think there might have been another twist in the tail even without the safety car. RB seemed to manage the US pretty well in the first stint, so I suspect you could easily make up 2s per lap for the last 13/14 laps or so and make a two stop work. If Vettel had rolled the dice on it - perhaps in response to RB doing the same - Bottas probably would have been forced to try and go to the end as the undercut would have been too strong to react.

We’ll never know if any of that’s true but I think we would have been in for an interesting finale without the safety car.
Erm Raikkonen was in far younger tyres. Logically think about it.
At the point of the SC Raikkonen hadn't long pitted. Any car pitting would have lost far more time than the RedBulls did in normal racing conditions.

Vettel was behind Bottas and by the end his tyres would have been just as old. If Raikkonen couldn't pass Bottas on younger tyres why would Vettel manage it in tyres of a similar age?
We both know there is no way Ferrari are going to green light Raikkonen on younger tyres get past Vettel on older ones as well (That's even if he could pass Hamilton).

Bottas had the position and would have stayed there. If Vettel pitted on the next lap under the SC he would have been far further back and he wouldn't have got back in time.

Bottas was in position and would very likely have stayed there no matter what Ferrari did.
I did logically think about it :D I think you’ve entirely missed my point though.

I’m saying if the safety car didn’t come out, there would have been a benefit for the car chasing - Vettel - to do another stop, given the rate at which tyres ended up going off.

If that were the case, and if he then managed to catch Bottas (big ifs), the delta would have been huge and overtake even easier than DR’s.

But it’s very much a hypothetical - we’ll never know.

NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:14 pm

spin1/2 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 am
Has Ricciardo ever won with pace? I feel all his wins have come from lucky situations, such as safety cars, front-runner screw-ups, rain, etc.
Max, on the other hand, has won with pace on a couple occasions.
Really ? Max has 3 wins. Barcelona 2016 (Both Mercs (fastest car) take each other out on lap 1)
Malaysia 2017 , Seb started last, Kimi didn't start (ferrari had fastest car)
Mexico 2017 Seb wrecked his own race at the start as well as Hamiltons. So the 2 guys who would have raced with Max were removed.

So youcould easily argue that Max hasn't won a race on pure pace yet either. Yet you state he has won on pace a couple of times already.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

holeindalip
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by holeindalip » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:25 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:14 pm
spin1/2 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 am
Has Ricciardo ever won with pace? I feel all his wins have come from lucky situations, such as safety cars, front-runner screw-ups, rain, etc.
Max, on the other hand, has won with pace on a couple occasions.
Really ? Max has 3 wins. Barcelona 2016 (Both Mercs (fastest car) take each other out on lap 1)
Malaysia 2017 , Seb started last, Kimi didn't start (ferrari had fastest car)
Mexico 2017 Seb wrecked his own race at the start as well as Hamiltons. So the 2 guys who would have raced with Max were removed.

So youcould easily argue that Max hasn't won a race on pure pace yet either. Yet you state he has won on pace a couple of times already.

Just to add to this Kimi was all over max and just couldn't overtake in barcelona

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Big Mangalhit » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:29 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:14 pm
spin1/2 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 am
Has Ricciardo ever won with pace? I feel all his wins have come from lucky situations, such as safety cars, front-runner screw-ups, rain, etc.
Max, on the other hand, has won with pace on a couple occasions.
Really ? Max has 3 wins. Barcelona 2016 (Both Mercs (fastest car) take each other out on lap 1)
Malaysia 2017 , Seb started last, Kimi didn't start (ferrari had fastest car)
Mexico 2017 Seb wrecked his own race at the start as well as Hamiltons. So the 2 guys who would have raced with Max were removed.

So youcould easily argue that Max hasn't won a race on pure pace yet either. Yet you state he has won on pace a couple of times already.
Another great post with Max race facts that really show how he is so much hyped. It's crazy the PR machine that revolves around him. Don't get me wrong I think he has obvious talent and his race in the rain in Brasil was out of this world.
But in fact there is always this idea that max is the best driver at RB and since the beginning of this year people always put Seb, Ham and Max as the leaders of their teams when it is clear for years that Ric performs much better during the whole season (max is better in some moments but is risky nature prevents him to be as effective). It's nice to have this posts that really shed light in his actual performance

NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Just like to add to that , Max never really threatened Lewis on that day in Brazil. So Verstappens finest hour was 2nd to Lewis :wink:
GoLandoGo
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:07 pm

f1316 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:01 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:00 am
f1316 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 am


Without the safety car, I think many - if not all bar Raikkonen - might have pitted again and/or had to defend from those who did.

Vettel’s tyres are hard to judge with the damage to both them and the car caused by the Verstappen incident, but Bottas’ had all but gone by the end - hence even Kimi catching him hand over fist. The Red Bulls, in my opinion, would have really struggled to get to the end quickly on the mediums they put on lap 18.

All of which is just to say I think there might have been another twist in the tail even without the safety car. RB seemed to manage the US pretty well in the first stint, so I suspect you could easily make up 2s per lap for the last 13/14 laps or so and make a two stop work. If Vettel had rolled the dice on it - perhaps in response to RB doing the same - Bottas probably would have been forced to try and go to the end as the undercut would have been too strong to react.

We’ll never know if any of that’s true but I think we would have been in for an interesting finale without the safety car.
Erm Raikkonen was in far younger tyres. Logically think about it.
At the point of the SC Raikkonen hadn't long pitted. Any car pitting would have lost far more time than the RedBulls did in normal racing conditions.

Vettel was behind Bottas and by the end his tyres would have been just as old. If Raikkonen couldn't pass Bottas on younger tyres why would Vettel manage it in tyres of a similar age?
We both know there is no way Ferrari are going to green light Raikkonen on younger tyres get past Vettel on older ones as well (That's even if he could pass Hamilton).

Bottas had the position and would have stayed there. If Vettel pitted on the next lap under the SC he would have been far further back and he wouldn't have got back in time.

Bottas was in position and would very likely have stayed there no matter what Ferrari did.
I did logically think about it :D I think you’ve entirely missed my point though.

I’m saying if the safety car didn’t come out, there would have been a benefit for the car chasing - Vettel - to do another stop, given the rate at which tyres ended up going off.

If that were the case, and if he then managed to catch Bottas (big ifs), the delta would have been huge and overtake even easier than DR’s.

But it’s very much a hypothetical - we’ll never know.
Sorry for misunderstanding however without the SC Vettel would need to clear any car that didn't pit. I genuinely don't see him doing it in time bearing in mind he would be around 26 seconds behind after a pit stop. Ricciardo only ended up 8 seconds ahead and even with the overtakes he was far nearer.

Vasconia
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Vasconia » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:30 pm

Sevach wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:41 am

1-Vettel's tires were past their best, he was .7s below his average on stint 1.
2-Ferrari lost 1 full second in the pitlane.
3-Really good outlap by Bottas.
Thanks mate, its a pity he did a bad lap prior to pit, not very usual in Sebastian.

Sevach
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Sevach » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:55 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:30 pm
Sevach wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:41 am

1-Vettel's tires were past their best, he was .7s below his average on stint 1.
2-Ferrari lost 1 full second in the pitlane.
3-Really good outlap by Bottas.
Thanks mate, its a pity he did a bad lap prior to pit, not very usual in Sebastian.
Tires were pretty much done, Vettel opened up the gap doing 38.7 repeatedly, his last 4 laps on the stint are 39.4s, tires clearly dropped off, Ferrari didn't react to it.

Funny thing, this time there wasn't much Mercedes could do to surprise Ferrari, if Ferrari pitted instead of waiting it's not like they could've kept Bottas (lapping in 39s as well) on Raikkonen like stint to get good offset, he would've lost the position to Verstappen and Hamilton some 3 laps after that, put himself in a huge hole.

Vettel165
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Vettel165 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:55 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:52 pm
Vettel165 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:44 pm
TAG wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:30 pm
Two certainties after yesterday's race, Vettel called Verstappen a dickhead after they both spun (very synchronized spin BTW) and a few people here blamed Hamilton for their contact. And so it goes. :mrgreen:
What Seb never said that, you are imagining things.
I think you missed his point.
He didn't say that Vettel said it on radio. It's not beyond the realms however to see him saying it to himself right after it happened.


You know as he is spinning around or just after the words 'dickhead' coming out of Vettel's mouth.
U I see... :lol:

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:57 pm

Vettel165 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:55 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:52 pm
Vettel165 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:44 pm


What Seb never said that, you are imagining things.
I think you missed his point.
He didn't say that Vettel said it on radio. It's not beyond the realms however to see him saying it to himself right after it happened.


You know as he is spinning around or just after the words 'dickhead' coming out of Vettel's mouth.
U I see... :lol:
Yeah I can see it too :lol:

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:00 pm

Speaking of drivers using 'pet names' :wink:

I always find it amazing how drivers soon learn and use the best of 'Angelo-Saxon' no matter where they are from. :lol:

epo
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by epo » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:58 pm

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:29 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:14 pm
spin1/2 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 am
Has Ricciardo ever won with pace? I feel all his wins have come from lucky situations, such as safety cars, front-runner screw-ups, rain, etc.
Max, on the other hand, has won with pace on a couple occasions.
Really ? Max has 3 wins. Barcelona 2016 (Both Mercs (fastest car) take each other out on lap 1)
Malaysia 2017 , Seb started last, Kimi didn't start (ferrari had fastest car)
Mexico 2017 Seb wrecked his own race at the start as well as Hamiltons. So the 2 guys who would have raced with Max were removed.

So youcould easily argue that Max hasn't won a race on pure pace yet either. Yet you state he has won on pace a couple of times already.
Another great post with Max race facts that really show how he is so much hyped. It's crazy the PR machine that revolves around him. Don't get me wrong I think he has obvious talent and his race in the rain in Brasil was out of this world.
But in fact there is always this idea that max is the best driver at RB and since the beginning of this year people always put Seb, Ham and Max as the leaders of their teams when it is clear for years that Ric performs much better during the whole season (max is better in some moments but is risky nature prevents him to be as effective). It's nice to have this posts that really shed light in his actual performance
Funny thing of you to say, as your post only shed light into the fact you kinda don't really like Max like many others which is fine. Just go on supporting your own dude instead of hating.
Your like that other dude Nathankiddo I believe? Trying to write down facts but in reality just writing down whatever is convenient to support your own bullshit, quite annoying.
Max made some stupid mistakes that is a fact, he need to recover from that himself and hopefully he will.

TAG
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by TAG » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:15 pm

Max drives like a guy who's never lost a championship by a handful of points.
"party mode" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

iotar__
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by iotar__ » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:28 pm

TAG wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:15 pm
Max drives like a guy who's never lost a championship by a handful of points.
- He has one way of overtaking: outbrake, steer across the corner outside: Ham-Bahrain, Hulk-AD, Ricciardo-Hungary, Massa-Monza, Rosberg - Mexico, Vettel GB '17 (defending) and so on. It's lack of skills yet they're selling it as some hot-headed impatience.

- This pathetic excuse of an attempt :D looks even worse in replays. Clear drive through and Fia helping again. It also shows that in F1 it's important who you hit. If it was a mid-field car they'd be blaming the victim, lying on twitter and in headlines about braking points or angle of taking this corner on the previous lap.

Race coverage was horrible:
* they didn't bother showing Bottas vs Vettel before tha stops showing well nothing instead.
* Verstappen is 6 s behind Bottas before and after pitstops, Sky RB salesmen: one more lap and he would have been in front #-o Really? How?

sosic2121
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Re: 2018 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 13-15

Post by sosic2121 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:29 pm

Sevach wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:55 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:30 pm
Sevach wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:41 am

1-Vettel's tires were past their best, he was .7s below his average on stint 1.
2-Ferrari lost 1 full second in the pitlane.
3-Really good outlap by Bottas.
Thanks mate, its a pity he did a bad lap prior to pit, not very usual in Sebastian.
Tires were pretty much done, Vettel opened up the gap doing 38.7 repeatedly, his last 4 laps on the stint are 39.4s, tires clearly dropped off, Ferrari didn't react to it.

Funny thing, this time there wasn't much Mercedes could do to surprise Ferrari, if Ferrari pitted instead of waiting it's not like they could've kept Bottas (lapping in 39s as well) on Raikkonen like stint to get good offset, he would've lost the position to Verstappen and Hamilton some 3 laps after that, put himself in a huge hole.
I really can't understand what were they thinking.
They saw Verstappen's times. They saw Hamilton's times. He pitted a lap earlier and was second per sector faster than Vettel. When Bottas pitted he was 3.2s and Seb was slowest top6 driver. His tires were done.
Kimi was able to lap faster than Seb.