Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
johnny comelately
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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by johnny comelately » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 am

and you can leave "turbulent" out of the discussion too, it's immaterial in my opinion.
that should light something up :wink:

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by johnny comelately » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:27 am

re the nitro engine, because you are dealing with liquid management the vertical placement (which had to be by engine design) worked well because it retained enough air in the spark chamber to initiate properly, as they drown easily (the usual reason they explode).
it had a multiple hole config of about 2mm diam.
this is important to charge the spark chamber. And because it is a hemi config giving plenty of depth for flame to do its thing.
this brings me to the concept honda pictures that were in here somewhere, it had multiple tiny holes that would be impossible to charge through, thus in the centre it looked like an additional ingress mechanism, but all fiction, wish poster would have put CONCEPT at the start or am I blind :wink:

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:54 am

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:21 am
As an indication of the effect of these, we fitted them(2 per cyl vertically) to a nitro hemi engine running normal 60BTDC timing.
at start up the blower belt went from smooth running to snaking showing that it was almost running backwards.
timing can come back to under 10 degrees, talk about pumping losses, what this saves in lost power is amazing.
This got my attention. I’m working on a cool Nitro Hemi deal right now.

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by johnny comelately » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 am

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:54 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:21 am
As an indication of the effect of these, we fitted them(2 per cyl vertically) to a nitro hemi engine running normal 60BTDC timing.
at start up the blower belt went from smooth running to snaking showing that it was almost running backwards.
timing can come back to under 10 degrees, talk about pumping losses, what this saves in lost power is amazing.
This got my attention. I’m working on a cool Nitro Hemi deal right now.
Absolutely make sure you pull timing back to 5 degrees, otherwise you'll have a hole in your wallet :wink:
Be ready for the effect, no kidding.

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 am
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:54 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:21 am
As an indication of the effect of these, we fitted them(2 per cyl vertically) to a nitro hemi engine running normal 60BTDC timing.
at start up the blower belt went from smooth running to snaking showing that it was almost running backwards.
timing can come back to under 10 degrees, talk about pumping losses, what this saves in lost power is amazing.
This got my attention. I’m working on a cool Nitro Hemi deal right now.
Absolutely make sure you pull timing back to 5 degrees, otherwise you'll have a hole in your wallet :wink:
Be ready for the effect, no kidding.
My project is more on the Engineering side that the tuning side.
Now I’m curious which continent you’re on given the time of day 😂

johnny comelately
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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by johnny comelately » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:51 am

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 am
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:54 am


This got my attention. I’m working on a cool Nitro Hemi deal right now.
Absolutely make sure you pull timing back to 5 degrees, otherwise you'll have a hole in your wallet :wink:
Be ready for the effect, no kidding.
My project is more on the Engineering side that the tuning side.
Now I’m curious which continent you’re on given the time of day 😂
Australia

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:21 pm

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:51 am
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 am

Absolutely make sure you pull timing back to 5 degrees, otherwise you'll have a hole in your wallet :wink:
Be ready for the effect, no kidding.
My project is more on the Engineering side that the tuning side.
Now I’m curious which continent you’re on given the time of day 😂
Australia
Hmmmmm JB?

johnny comelately
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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by johnny comelately » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:10 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:21 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:51 am
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am


My project is more on the Engineering side that the tuning side.
Now I’m curious which continent you’re on given the time of day 😂
Australia
Hmmmmm JB?
No, he is north of me

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:23 pm

Ahhh fair enough. I thought we might know each other 😉

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by godlameroso » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:57 pm

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:27 am
re the nitro engine, because you are dealing with liquid management the vertical placement (which had to be by engine design) worked well because it retained enough air in the spark chamber to initiate properly, as they drown easily (the usual reason they explode).
it had a multiple hole config of about 2mm diam.
this is important to charge the spark chamber. And because it is a hemi config giving plenty of depth for flame to do its thing.
this brings me to the concept honda pictures that were in here somewhere, it had multiple tiny holes that would be impossible to charge through, thus in the centre it looked like an additional ingress mechanism, but all fiction, wish poster would have put CONCEPT at the start or am I blind :wink:
You'd definitely need an ingress portal, does putting a velocity stack in the barrel outlet help? Trumpet shape and what not, or does a straight barrel work best?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

johnny comelately
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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by johnny comelately » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:35 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:57 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:27 am
re the nitro engine, because you are dealing with liquid management the vertical placement (which had to be by engine design) worked well because it retained enough air in the spark chamber to initiate properly, as they drown easily (the usual reason they explode).
it had a multiple hole config of about 2mm diam.
this is important to charge the spark chamber. And because it is a hemi config giving plenty of depth for flame to do its thing.
this brings me to the concept honda pictures that were in here somewhere, it had multiple tiny holes that would be impossible to charge through, thus in the centre it looked like an additional ingress mechanism, but all fiction, wish poster would have put CONCEPT at the start or am I blind :wink:
You'd definitely need an ingress portal, does putting a velocity stack in the barrel outlet help? Trumpet shape and what not, or does a straight barrel work best?
this is the insert type for methanol, all volumes and ratios are important.
start with a small hole depending on chamber and bore and drill out until you are across most of the crown.
thats a 10mm plug thread, hole ended up at about 3.2mm for 93 bore.
Image

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by godlameroso » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:11 pm

That's neat, the spark plug threads into it, is it the kinetic energy of the flame or the unburned radicals or a combination thereof that ignites the lean mixture in the main chamber? I notice the barrel end is relatively straight, is this the best shape after trial and error?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:10 pm

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:27 am
re the nitro engine, because you are dealing with liquid management the vertical placement (which had to be by engine design) worked well because it retained enough air in the spark chamber to initiate properly, as they drown easily (the usual reason they explode).
it had a multiple hole config of about 2mm diam.
this is important to charge the spark chamber. And because it is a hemi config giving plenty of depth for flame to do its thing.
this brings me to the concept honda pictures that were in here somewhere, it had multiple tiny holes that would be impossible to charge through, thus in the centre it looked like an additional ingress mechanism, but all fiction, wish poster would have put CONCEPT at the start or am I blind :wink:
I imagine on a Nitro engine getting the concept just right would be tricky as well, you wouldn't want any orifices where non burned nitro could hide as that could also be an explosion waiting to happen.

As far as the points you make about the small holes - i made the same points before when some were discussing the same system you quite rightly say should say "concept"
I love this forum but too often people post something from their imagination and others run with it as fact.

Thanks for sharing your insight!

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Re: Science paper on pre-chamber or flame jet ignition.

Post by Muniix » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:58 am

johnny comelately wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:55 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:31 pm
Aren’t you forgetting the mgu-h? The more (excess) air in the mixture, the more the mgu-h can extract from it. Also the turbo has been designed around a certain amount of air/exhaust gas coming through, i don’t believe this still works at lamba 1.0 of it is designed for higher values.
Not forgetting it, but from my view not all that related except it gets a significant benefit from better combustion.
This comes from:
1. a more complete and quicker combustion for a higher total amount of heat and
2. higher pressure exiting the exhaust valve/port
With ultra lean exhaust temperature is reduced 35% as combustion temperature is similarly reduced. The reduced rate of kinetics the number of high energy reactants and products moles bouncing around creating pressure vs spinning doing nothing for pressure at the higher temperature diffusion combustion of stoichiometry.
Not my perfect explanation but very close. Less heat is generated and lost to coolant at ultra lean, combustion temperature drops from 2560 Kelvin to ~1800 at lambda 1.85.
The second law of thermodynamics, equilibrium states that a given temperature produces specific moles higher temperature produced different species, mass and elements are conserved.