2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 16, 2018 6:01 pm

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:14 pm
So unless someone else wins a MotoGP championship with a Ducati, Stoner will always be considered one of the Greats because he simply did something that no one else could replicate (or even come close).
Personally I don´t think that´s true at all. Ducati has always been a weird bike, with a great engine but odd handling. If he won with KTM that would be a different story, but a bike with a good engine can be a great bike if it matches his rider characteristics

I think we all agree Lorenzo is a great rider, but now he looks useless when compared to Dovizioso because his riding style is very different to the one required to be fast on a Ducati (he´s admitted himself he need to modify his riding style). The opposite is also plausible obviously, and I think that´s what happened with Stoner, both rider and bike were a good match.

When he rode a good bike he won a title, but on next season he was beaten by Pedrosa, and even when I like Pedrosa, he´s always struggled in MotoGP due to his light weight and has barely beaten any team mate

But I understand people assuming his title with Ducati made him a great, only that I disagree :) To me he´s a similar case to Raikonnen, a very talented driver/rider but who only perform on some seasons, while he´s lost on many others and to me the greatest always perform, to me consistency is a must to be considered one of the greats and Casey missed that part. But when he had a good season, OMG he was unstoppable =D> =D>

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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by GPR-A » Wed May 16, 2018 6:05 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:44 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:48 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:06 pm
Yeah it would have been a completely different story if Dovi didnt screw up at Phillip Island. He lost something like 20pts to MM that day, then on the final day in Valencia Dovi dropped it in the gravel trying to do the impossible and that was after MM fell off and stayed on it all in the same corner in only a way MM can do it. So it WAS close. and could have easily gone the other way.
MM had 3 retirements before the final race, where Dovi had an off at an insignificant time, by which time he had lost the title. Dovi had just one retirement before the final race and that makes things closer than they really were.
But MM is guaranteed to fall off pretty much every weekend, thats how he is so fast. Dovi is way more controlled. So his 1 off was more out of character than Mm falling off 10 times.
Well, you wish it would have been that simple.

Link -> MotoGP: How Marc Marquez crashed 27 times, avoided getting hurt, and won the 2017 title
The Honda was not a happy bike early in the 2017 season. Two of the 27 crashes came within the first five races of the season, one in Argentina and one at Le Mans in France. They left Marquez off the pace in the championship and, more importantly, frustrated with his bike’s handling.

“After Le Mans, we were in the car going to the airport with Emilio (Alzamora, his manager) and Jose (Luis Martinez, a former motocross champ and trainer), and I told them ‘I’m not enjoying being on the bike’. I’m just riding because I need to ride, but I’m not enjoying it,” he said.

“Then, we change the mentality. We say first of all we need to find a way to enjoy being on the bike, then we will find the results.”

The only way to determine if the setup and bike changes his team made were working was to ride absolutely flat out — and with that approach came inevitable consequences.

“At the (Catalunya) test we tried a different chassis; not a new chassis, but another specification that was used by Cal (Crutchlow) and the others,” he said. “It feel a little bit better; then we tried a few different things, and step by step I got the feeling. When we’re riding in the limit at that level, it’s so difficult to try one thing and be half a second faster.

“I was faster but I was not safe, 100 per cent. For that reason, I had many crashes. For next year I want to understand why, and I want to understand during the preseason how to get a better feeling with the front (tyre) and understand better where is the limit.”

GPR-A
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by GPR-A » Wed May 16, 2018 6:43 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:01 pm
Ducati has always been a weird bike, with a great engine but odd handling. If he won with KTM that would be a different story, but a bike with a good engine can be a great bike if it matches his rider characteristics
How is a bike with which a rider wins 10 GPs and 4 podiums, a weird bike? And his team mate wins 1 race and gets 3 podiums. On two occasions, Ducati riders finished on podium together! Rossi had the second highest wins that season with 4 wins!

Your analogy of Kimi was right for Stoner. While his style of riding matched the 2007 Ducati, he couldn't have won it with the equipment being capable of it. Nobody does. He never crashed anytime in that season, which suggests that he always drove either under the limit or close to the limit, which was comfortable enough to win those many races.

To suggest anything more than that like Ducati was some kind of a ghost is an overstatement. Read the article that I posted above regarding MM's 2017 season for reference.

NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by NathanOlder » Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 pm

Here's a good way to look at it.

Ducati in MotoGP has 17 wins if you don't include Casey.

Notable Ducati riders have been (career wins) :

Loris Capirossi (9 wins)
Sete Gibernau (8 wins)
Marco Melandri (5 wins)
Nicky Hayden (3 wins)
Valentino Rossi (89 wins)
Andrea Dovizioso (9 wins)
Cal Crutchlow (3 wins)
Jorge Lorenzo (44 wins)

As you can see these riders are TOP calibre. In total they share 361 Grand Prix starts on a Ducati and managed 17 wins (4%).

Casey Stoner took part in 67 Grand Prix on a Ducati, he managed 23 wins (34%).

There is no way you can argue with these stats. The guy was a great.

And Andres125 is right, Ducati has always been a 'different' bike. The Bologna Bullet has taken a very different rider to dominate it. Casey did very much so. And skipping forward to 2017, the only reason Dovi was close to a title was because MM was constantly throwing the Honda down the road whether it was in Qualy or the Race.

Since MotoGP began (2002) the RCV has won 8 riders & 9 constructors Championships. The Desmosedici has 1 riders Championship and 1 Constructors championship.

Everything and I mean EVERYTHING aims towards Casey being a Legend.

So Andres & GPR-A, out of interest, who on the current grid do you put at Casey Stoners Level so I can see exactly how you rate him ?

I rate him = to Marc Marquez.
Last edited by NathanOlder on Fri May 18, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by Andres125sx » Thu May 17, 2018 8:02 am

I´ve never liked comparisons, you´ll never read anything from me saying X driver is the best of all times. Different times can´t be compared, different rivals, different bikes.... there are too many variables to make a fair comparison, so I never compare riders/drivers.

All I say is if I consider him one of the greatest of all times or not, the order of those greats to me is irrelevant, because it will be different depending on who you ask, each person provide different relevance to different things so those dicussions are endless, always

NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by NathanOlder » Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 am

Fair enough, although its not really a different generation, he's 32 and effectively a test rider. Its not like were talking about a Doohan , Rainey or Sheene.
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Nonserviam85
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by Nonserviam85 » Thu May 17, 2018 4:10 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:42 pm
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:14 pm
According to you logic Schumacher is the greatest right? Can you claim though that he was greatest than Senna?
I am not sure about you, but for me, Schumacher was definitely greater than Senna. There are a list of attributes that I consider for such an opinion.
Sorry mate, there is no point discussing any further after that statement...

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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by GPR-A » Thu May 17, 2018 4:57 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 pm
Here's a good way to look at it.

Ducati in MotoGP has 17 wins if you don't include Casey.

Notable Ducati riders have been (career wins) :

Loris Capirossi (9 wins)
Sete Gibernau (8 wins)
Marco Melandri (5 wins)
Nicky Hayden (3 wins)
Valentino Rossi (89 wins)
Andrea Dovizioso (9 wins)
Cal Crutchlow (3 wins)
Jorge Lorenzo (44 wins)

As you can see these riders are TOP calibre. In total they share 361 Grand Prix starts on a Ducati and managed 17 wins (4%).

Casey Stoner took part in 67 Grand Prix on a Ducati, he managed 23 wins (34%).

There is no way you can argue with these stats. The guy was a great.

And Andres125 is right, Ducati has always been a 'different' bike. The Bologna Bullet has taken a very different rider to dominate it. Casey did very much so. And skipping forward to 2017, the only reason Dovi was close to a title was because MM was constantly throwing the Honda down the road whether it was in Qualy or the Race.

Since MotoGP began (2002) the RCV has won 8 riders & 9 constructors Championships. The Desmosedici has ! riders Championship and 1 Constructors championship.

Everything and I mean EVERYTHING aims towards Casey being a Legend.

So Andres & GPR-A, out of interest, who on the current grid do you put at Casey Stoners Level so I can see exactly how you rate him ?

I rate him = to Marc Marquez.
Regardless of how many times I try to pull the attention, every single time the discussion strays away from 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2012. You end up focusing on 2007. One freak year, where Ducati got it right (no one can drive a bad bike to wins). No Stoner fan here is giving a convincing answer as to why he couldn't repeat his 2007 feat in 2008, 09 and10?

Is one season enough to make someone a great, ignoring the other failed years? I am not convinced at all!

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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by Bill_Kar » Thu May 17, 2018 5:43 pm

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:10 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:42 pm
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:14 pm
According to you logic Schumacher is the greatest right? Can you claim though that he was greatest than Senna?
I am not sure about you, but for me, Schumacher was definitely greater than Senna. There are a list of attributes that I consider for such an opinion.
Sorry mate, there is no point discussing any further after that statement...
I don't get this; It's not like he said that Sato is greater than Senna or even Villeneuve!

NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by NathanOlder » Thu May 17, 2018 6:45 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:57 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 pm
Here's a good way to look at it.

Ducati in MotoGP has 17 wins if you don't include Casey.

Notable Ducati riders have been (career wins) :

Loris Capirossi (9 wins)
Sete Gibernau (8 wins)
Marco Melandri (5 wins)
Nicky Hayden (3 wins)
Valentino Rossi (89 wins)
Andrea Dovizioso (9 wins)
Cal Crutchlow (3 wins)
Jorge Lorenzo (44 wins)

As you can see these riders are TOP calibre. In total they share 361 Grand Prix starts on a Ducati and managed 17 wins (4%).

Casey Stoner took part in 67 Grand Prix on a Ducati, he managed 23 wins (34%).

There is no way you can argue with these stats. The guy was a great.

And Andres125 is right, Ducati has always been a 'different' bike. The Bologna Bullet has taken a very different rider to dominate it. Casey did very much so. And skipping forward to 2017, the only reason Dovi was close to a title was because MM was constantly throwing the Honda down the road whether it was in Qualy or the Race.

Since MotoGP began (2002) the RCV has won 8 riders & 9 constructors Championships. The Desmosedici has ! riders Championship and 1 Constructors championship.

Everything and I mean EVERYTHING aims towards Casey being a Legend.

So Andres & GPR-A, out of interest, who on the current grid do you put at Casey Stoners Level so I can see exactly how you rate him ?

I rate him = to Marc Marquez.
Regardless of how many times I try to pull the attention, every single time the discussion strays away from 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2012. You end up focusing on 2007. One freak year, where Ducati got it right (no one can drive a bad bike to wins). No Stoner fan here is giving a convincing answer as to why he couldn't repeat his 2007 feat in 2008, 09 and10?
2008 he was runner up to best rider ever to live.
2009 he had health problems.
2010 was a bad year.

Next.
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GPR-A
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by GPR-A » Thu May 17, 2018 11:32 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:45 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:57 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 pm
Here's a good way to look at it.

Ducati in MotoGP has 17 wins if you don't include Casey.

Notable Ducati riders have been (career wins) :

Loris Capirossi (9 wins)
Sete Gibernau (8 wins)
Marco Melandri (5 wins)
Nicky Hayden (3 wins)
Valentino Rossi (89 wins)
Andrea Dovizioso (9 wins)
Cal Crutchlow (3 wins)
Jorge Lorenzo (44 wins)

As you can see these riders are TOP calibre. In total they share 361 Grand Prix starts on a Ducati and managed 17 wins (4%).

Casey Stoner took part in 67 Grand Prix on a Ducati, he managed 23 wins (34%).

There is no way you can argue with these stats. The guy was a great.

And Andres125 is right, Ducati has always been a 'different' bike. The Bologna Bullet has taken a very different rider to dominate it. Casey did very much so. And skipping forward to 2017, the only reason Dovi was close to a title was because MM was constantly throwing the Honda down the road whether it was in Qualy or the Race.

Since MotoGP began (2002) the RCV has won 8 riders & 9 constructors Championships. The Desmosedici has ! riders Championship and 1 Constructors championship.

Everything and I mean EVERYTHING aims towards Casey being a Legend.

So Andres & GPR-A, out of interest, who on the current grid do you put at Casey Stoners Level so I can see exactly how you rate him ?

I rate him = to Marc Marquez.
Regardless of how many times I try to pull the attention, every single time the discussion strays away from 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2012. You end up focusing on 2007. One freak year, where Ducati got it right (no one can drive a bad bike to wins). No Stoner fan here is giving a convincing answer as to why he couldn't repeat his 2007 feat in 2008, 09 and10?
2008 he was runner up to best rider ever to live.
2009 he had health problems.
2010 was a bad year.

Next.
And that is how a rider achieves greatness! Gotcha.

I thought we are a Technical forum. :D

Nathan, I am happy for you that there is an emotionally charged member who is up voting your posts. :P

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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by J.A.W. » Fri May 18, 2018 12:29 am

GPR-A wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:32 pm


I thought we are a Technical forum. :D

Nathan, I am happy for you that there is an emotionally charged member who is up voting your posts. :P

Whaaa?

GPR-A, what's with the bizarre juxtaposition of seemingly seeking to claim the 'technical high-ground' in one sentence,
& then, rather than cite some facts to support your position - instead, promptly resorting to such emotive nonsense?

Can it be.. you now know the Ducati G.P. results data.. utterly buries your contention, & so 'blather' - is all you have?

Anyhow..

& by way of getting things back onto a true 'technical' basis..

Ducati determination to retain their 'trademark' right-angle, L-configuration engine architecture..
- is actually a fundamental impediment - in getting their chassis to manoeuvre as well as they'd like..
& its why so many successful riders of other machines.. have found the Ducati - so problematic..
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by NathanOlder » Fri May 18, 2018 7:54 am

I just thought of a different comparison ,

Jim Clark, regarded as one of the best ever and by some the greatest of all time.


World Championships: Clark-2 --- Stoner-2
Championship runner up: Clark-1 --- Stoner-1
Win percentage: Clark-34% --- Stoner-33%
Podium percentage: Clark-43% --- Stoner-60%
Seasons competing in top class: Clark-8years ---- Stoner-7years
Multiple World Champion rivals Clark- G.Hill, J.Brabham, J.Stewart ---- Stoner- V.Rossi , J.Lorenzo

Basically if Clark is a great/legend in F1, how can Casey not be in MotoGP
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by Andres125sx » Fri May 18, 2018 8:13 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 am
Fair enough, although its not really a different generation, he's 32 and effectively a test rider. Its not like were talking about a Doohan , Rainey or Sheene.
Then you replied yourserlf, same generation (same rivals), same bike (both HRC riders), Stoner won 1 title with Honda in 2 seasons and only beated Pedrosa once, while Marquez on same bike won 4 titles in 5 seasons (2 first in a row with no previous experience in MotoGP) beating Pedrosa 5/5

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Re: 2018 FIM Moto GP World Championship

Post by J.A.W. » Fri May 18, 2018 8:23 am

& in the 'apples-to-apples' dept.. what was Dani's WC standings/wins/podiums - rate as Casey's team mate, compared to M.M.?

Dani's been tapering off markedly in recent seasons & is now - just about washed up - with Repsol/HRC..

M.M. also started in Moto GP - on the factory Honda.. not many ever got that gig.. inc' Casey..
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
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