Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
trinidefender
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Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:37 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by trinidefender » Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:56 am
dren wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:02 pm
Yes, that is an interesting idea on the compressor. It'd have to be purely passive, right?
Need to run galleries (green) through the compressor impeller and connect to the compressor discharge. All internal to the compressor design so should be considered "passive".
https://i.imgur.com/7JnZavw.jpg
Any educated guesses on efficiency loss by doing this?

Surely the holes in the blades and the fact that some of the air is being compressed more than once as it gets recycled through the compressor will heat it up more.

I have to wonder if this will work better than simply having variable stator vanes pre compressor as are used in many gas turbines already. That would also move the surge line to the left.

IRC I had asked about this before and was told that variable geometry was allowed only banned on the exhaust side not the intake side.

So why not variable stator vanes?

roon
289
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Thu May 17, 2018 9:30 am

trinidefender wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am
...why not variable stator vanes?
The Merc unit has this, maybe since inception. The '17 Honda seemed to have had it as well.

Mercedes:
Image

Honda:
Image

gruntguru
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Fri May 18, 2018 12:18 am

trinidefender wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am
gruntguru wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:56 am
dren wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:02 pm
Yes, that is an interesting idea on the compressor. It'd have to be purely passive, right?
Need to run galleries (green) through the compressor impeller and connect to the compressor discharge. All internal to the compressor design so should be considered "passive".
https://i.imgur.com/7JnZavw.jpg
Any educated guesses on efficiency loss by doing this?
Surely the holes in the blades and the fact that some of the air is being compressed more than once as it gets recycled through the compressor will heat it up more.
I have to wonder if this will work better than simply having variable stator vanes pre compressor as are used in many gas turbines already. That would also move the surge line to the left.
IRC I had asked about this before and was told that variable geometry was allowed only banned on the exhaust side not the intake side.
So why not variable stator vanes?
Indeed. That fact that VSV are in use would reduce the potential for gains from microjets. Add to that the compromises in impeller design and possible efficiency reduction. I say "possible" because the factors (heating etc) you raise, are minor. These are tiny holes and flow is equally insignificant. OTOH any reduction in flow separation will improve efficiency although - again - the VSV system should minimise that anyway.
je suis charlie

flexcon
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:18 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by flexcon » Tue May 22, 2018 4:32 pm

So I found this video I put together from testing. Forgot to share and post.

Honda engine sound from multiple angles- Pure Sound only. Enjoy :)


urbanglowcam
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Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:05 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by urbanglowcam » Wed May 23, 2018 5:26 am

flexcon wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:32 pm
So I found this video I put together from testing. Forgot to share and post.

Honda engine sound from multiple angles- Pure Sound only. Enjoy :)

https://youtu.be/u3qEZrUJpus
Hah! I thought there was an engine failure at the end before I realized it was in slow-mo. #-o

Thanks for the footage. Was it easier to distinguish the noise from the STR Honda from the others in person?

flexcon
4
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:18 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by flexcon » Wed May 23, 2018 9:36 am

urbanglowcam wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:26 am
flexcon wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:32 pm
So I found this video I put together from testing. Forgot to share and post.

Honda engine sound from multiple angles- Pure Sound only. Enjoy :)

https://youtu.be/u3qEZrUJpus
Hah! I thought there was an engine failure at the end before I realized it was in slow-mo. #-o

Thanks for the footage. Was it easier to distinguish the noise from the STR Honda from the others in person?
haha. I used slow Mo as the Honda engine sounds strange compared to the others in Slo-Mo. Just found that interesting, could be nothing though.

100%. Sometimes it sounded quite clean, but once there was the split second longer off the throttle, it just started giving out.
quite funny actually, at the track, whenever it passed by into a slow corner, everyone had the fingers crossed hoping whoever was driving to keep it off throttle a little longer in the corner to get that mean ass sound. It actually became an event with people shouting YAY!!! each time we got a good one. Almost like fireworks, some good ones come and go, but suddenly you get the big Bang and everyone loves it.

It didn't look slower coming out of the corner though, if anything smoother.

Revs84
18
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm

Gasly has now made it 5 races in a row with the same ICE, turbo and mgu-h and if I'm not mistaken, 6 races with the rest. Honda's efforts during the Winter seems to be paying off =D> Hope they manage the same level of reliability with the 2nd spec [-o<

All in all, considering that work on the new concept started just over 2 years ago, Honda have really done an impressive job!

makecry
38
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by makecry » Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm

Revs84 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Gasly has now made it 5 races in a row with the same ICE, turbo and mgu-h and if I'm not mistaken, 6 races with the rest. Honda's efforts during the Winter seems to be paying off =D> Hope they manage the same level of reliability with the 2nd spec [-o<

All in all, considering that work on the new concept started just over 2 years ago, Honda have really done an impressive job!
This is a result of Honda's efforts over last 12 months. Not just the winter. But yes, impressive.

Revs84
18
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Sun May 27, 2018 9:02 pm

makecry wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Gasly has now made it 5 races in a row with the same ICE, turbo and mgu-h and if I'm not mistaken, 6 races with the rest. Honda's efforts during the Winter seems to be paying off =D> Hope they manage the same level of reliability with the 2nd spec [-o<

All in all, considering that work on the new concept started just over 2 years ago, Honda have really done an impressive job!
This is a result of Honda's efforts over last 12 months. Not just the winter. But yes, impressive.
True, but my impression was that last year, the priority was to find more power since they were lagging greatly. Updates were being rolled out as soon as possible without full QA being done.

Reliability was more of a reactive approach, whereby a fix was being sought once something broke, rather than finding reliability in advance.

At the time, that approach made most sense, since they couldn't afford staying so much behind in power.

On the other hand, the focus during Winter seemed to have been mostly on reliability, thus taking a more proactive approach, and it now seems to be paying off.

This means that now they can finally start focusing on more reliable power, rather than having to go on an ad-hoc and unplanned strategy.

Really can't wait to see what the upgraded unit, which is supposed to debut in Canada, will bring! :)

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Sun May 27, 2018 9:26 pm

makecry wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Gasly has now made it 5 races in a row with the same ICE, turbo and mgu-h and if I'm not mistaken, 6 races with the rest. Honda's efforts during the Winter seems to be paying off =D> Hope they manage the same level of reliability with the 2nd spec [-o<

All in all, considering that work on the new concept started just over 2 years ago, Honda have really done an impressive job!
This is a result of Honda's efforts over last 12 months. Not just the winter. But yes, impressive.
actualy that should of happened 2 years ago except some delusion idiots asked them to produce a very light weight compact PU to take advantage aerodynamically and mechanically in unmeasured way and they've been exposed currently while carrying the same PU like RBR that they are clueless
so the filth of pride of Honda forced them to accept such structure also unmeasured and idiotically as well .. resulted in 2 years gone in vain with the C in the V saga.
now thats done and dusted we are about to see one hell of a season 2019 RBR-Honda VS Mercedes and Ferrari
It Tolls for Thee.

sn809
4
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by sn809 » Mon May 28, 2018 4:55 am

[/quote]
2 years gone in vain with the C in the V saga.
[/quote]

Lol quote of the day

Cannonballer
5
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:12 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Cannonballer » Mon May 28, 2018 5:26 am

loner wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:26 pm
makecry wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Gasly has now made it 5 races in a row with the same ICE, turbo and mgu-h and if I'm not mistaken, 6 races with the rest. Honda's efforts during the Winter seems to be paying off =D> Hope they manage the same level of reliability with the 2nd spec [-o<

All in all, considering that work on the new concept started just over 2 years ago, Honda have really done an impressive job!
This is a result of Honda's efforts over last 12 months. Not just the winter. But yes, impressive.
actualy that should of happened 2 years ago except some delusion idiots asked them to produce a very light weight compact PU to take advantage aerodynamically and mechanically in unmeasured way and they've been exposed currently while carrying the same PU like RBR that they are clueless
so the filth of pride of Honda forced them to accept such structure also unmeasured and idiotically as well .. resulted in 2 years gone in vain with the C in the V saga.
now thats done and dusted we are about to see one hell of a season 2019 RBR-Honda VS Mercedes and Ferrari
Really is a succinct summary of the 13,824 posts before it. Although I do wonder how the c in v saga would have played out if Honda had the same understanding of the hybrid system as they do now.
Wazari wrote: There's a saying in Japan, He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........

loner
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Mon May 28, 2018 12:35 pm

Cannonballer wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:26 am
Really is a succinct summary of the 13,824 posts before it. Although I do wonder how the c in v saga would have played out if Honda had the same understanding of the hybrid system as they do now.
well ...
2016-02-09
Why Mercedes doesn't believe in Honda's size zero concept
When asked if it was logical that as efficiency improved, the turbine got bigger, Cowell said: "Yeah. Two areas are going to improve, the efficiency of the ICE is going to go up and up and up every year, and the efficiency of that turbo is going to go up.
"That means the turbine sizing number is going to go up as long as it is not stealing from the engine."
In Mercedes' case, Cowell confirmed that its turbine had got bigger year on year – helping deliver more power.
Had that compressor and turbine size been restricted to the inside of the engine, like the Honda is, then the scope for making it larger is not there – as it will no longer deliver the advantages that size zero supposedly brings along.

It is clear that Mercedes' vision of what's needed in F1 and what Honda believes is right are very different.
the C in the V would never ever succeeded., not to mention COG etc...
It Tolls for Thee.

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wazari » Mon May 28, 2018 6:19 pm

loner wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:26 pm
actualy that should of happened 2 years ago except some delusion idiots asked them to produce a very light weight compact PU to take advantage aerodynamically and mechanically in unmeasured way and they've been exposed currently while carrying the same PU like RBR that they are clueless
so the filth of pride of Honda forced them to accept such structure also unmeasured and idiotically as well .. resulted in 2 years gone in vain with the C in the V saga.
now thats done and dusted we are about to see one hell of a season 2019 RBR-Honda VS Mercedes and Ferrari
"C in the V"....I like it, very clever. Another way to look at it is that the 2 years is actually closer to 4 when you include the prep time involved. However, IMO, some valuable lessons were learned in the process.

"C in the V". I have to remember that.......... 8)
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

maguetox
8
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:46 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by maguetox » Mon May 28, 2018 6:47 pm

Wazari wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:19 pm
loner wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:26 pm
actualy that should of happened 2 years ago except some delusion idiots asked them to produce a very light weight compact PU to take advantage aerodynamically and mechanically in unmeasured way and they've been exposed currently while carrying the same PU like RBR that they are clueless
so the filth of pride of Honda forced them to accept such structure also unmeasured and idiotically as well .. resulted in 2 years gone in vain with the C in the V saga.
now thats done and dusted we are about to see one hell of a season 2019 RBR-Honda VS Mercedes and Ferrari
"C in the V"....I like it, very clever. Another way to look at it is that the 2 years is actually closer to 4 when you include the prep time involved. However, IMO, some valuable lessons were learned in the process.

"C in the V". I have to remember that.......... 8)
Good to see you around here Wazari san. Something that you can or want to share with us?