Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
.poz
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by .poz » Wed May 16, 2018 10:46 am

bill shoe wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm
The "extra 20 hp of electricity" leaks must be coming from one of these-
1. source within Ferrari team (purpose is to damage team for personal gain/promotion within team, or purpose is to help team by misleading press/public/other teams from some other issue)
2. source within powertrain customers Haas or Sauber (concern about their team's legality?)
3. source within FIA (want to portray themselves as being aware and in control in case it later turns out to be violation).
4. competitor team with non-Ferrari engine must have concluded from GPS data that Ferrari may be doing something illegal and are feeding rumors to press to get eventual real action.
5. press made it up or speculated.
Or from the Ferrari ex chief of engine development that now is working for Mercedes

epo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by epo » Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 am

hurril wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:57 am
marvin78 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:41 am
And very often this consensus is proven wrong. So...
Which is why that sentence has a "probably" in it. Did you see it?

The alternative to this settings is fanbois bickering and bullys deleting any speculating post. Which would you rather have?
Well tbh 95% of the time it's fanboi time on this forum. If only there were capable moderators here..
Like this oil thingy, who gives a ---. It's Ferrari bois against Mercedes bois, seriously who cares.

santos
25
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by santos » Wed May 16, 2018 11:38 am

djones wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 pm
Sorry, but Ferrari were the only ones with additional tanks.

This is actual evidence. Show me a single piece that shows Merc also burned oil??? oh....you can't.

As a Ferrari fan I agree it would be nice if we could also throw some --- at Merc, hoping it would stick.
Ferrari had a tank… yes it did. But Mercedes were also buring oil. Like every other team. That's why they changed the engine before SPA. And you will say that Toto said that they weren't burning 1.2 litres per 100km permited before… yeah i will belive in that.

hurril
39
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by hurril » Wed May 16, 2018 12:46 pm

epo wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 am
hurril wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:57 am
marvin78 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:41 am
And very often this consensus is proven wrong. So...
Which is why that sentence has a "probably" in it. Did you see it?

The alternative to this settings is fanbois bickering and bullys deleting any speculating post. Which would you rather have?
Well tbh 95% of the time it's fanboi time on this forum. If only there were capable moderators here..
Like this oil thingy, who gives a ---. It's Ferrari bois against Mercedes bois, seriously who cares.
I disagree with you. I don't see much fanboiisms and I don't have anything in particular against the moderation either.

I care about the oil burning to the extent that it is a fascinating development. That said: it's very clearly cheating so they should be punished/ stopped.

Phil
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Phil » Wed May 16, 2018 12:58 pm

I personally think the discussion should involve more about "how do they do it" (and if its feasible), rather than if it's right or wrong or cheating. The latter is very difficult to prove either way, but it's much more interesting to figure out how and where these teams derive their performance [advantage] from.

Of course Mercedes have been oil burning. Renault and Honda are both said to be hovering around 0.1l/100km while both Mercedes and Ferrari are much closer to the limit of 0.6l/100km (courtesy of AMuS). The logical conclusion is that both Mercedes and Ferrari are using more oil than Renault and Honda. On top of that, there's speculation that Ferrari could be burning even more oil [than the allowed 0.6l/100km] because of a separate oil circuit linked to the turbo, which per the regulation isn't a 'motor'. If Ferrari is doing that or if that is simply a competing team poking around in the dark making accusations based on what they think could be a loophole in the written regs, is hard to say...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

taperoo2k
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by taperoo2k » Wed May 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Phil wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:58 pm
I personally think the discussion should involve more about "how do they do it" (and if its feasible), rather than if it's right or wrong or cheating. The latter is very difficult to prove either way, but it's much more interesting to figure out how and where these teams derive their performance [advantage] from.
That's the reasonable approach to this, work out what's technically possible and if that's within the rules or skirting around the edges of the rules.
Of course Mercedes have been oil burning. Renault and Honda are both said to be hovering around 0.1l/100km while both Mercedes and Ferrari are much closer to the limit of 0.6l/100km (courtesy of AMuS). The logical conclusion is that both Mercedes and Ferrari are using more oil than Renault and Honda. On top of that, there's speculation that Ferrari could be burning even more oil [than the allowed 0.6l/100km] because of a separate oil circuit linked to the turbo, which per the regulation isn't a 'motor'. If Ferrari is doing that or if that is simply a competing team poking around in the dark making accusations based on what they think could be a loophole in the written regs, is hard to say...
Interesting rumours from Mark Priestly - a Rumour that Mercedes were asked to remove something from it's combustion system (hence the loss in performance in the early part of the season) and Ferrari might be deploying more energy than is allowed (probably already known about, I'm a little behind)
https://youtu.be/T5OxyB11XAc

The FIA is the only party that will know what the full score is, as long as they look in the right places of course and they decide to act on information provided to them by other teams. We shouldn't be surprised if "Cheating" is going on, it's a traditional part of F1. Hence why I don't get worked up over it, I just hope the FIA is on top of things to keep the competition fair.

McHonda
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by McHonda » Wed May 16, 2018 6:10 pm

GhostF1 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:04 am
epo wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:39 pm
djones wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 pm
Sorry, but Ferrari were the only ones with additional tanks.

This is actual evidence. Show me a single piece that shows Merc also burned oil??? oh....you can't.

As a Ferrari fan I agree it would be nice if we could also throw some --- at Merc, hoping it would stick.
So what dude, an extra doesn't prove --- either so what exactly is your point #-o
More so the fact Ferrari did not disclose what the auxiliary tank was for at first. That rang alarm bells for me.
Hard to disclose what something you denied existed is for though,right?

Rumours about Ferrari (removing extra oil tank) seem to become accepted fact whereas rumours about Mercedes (removing "something" from ICE) seem to barely get noticed at all.

Both those rumours were denied by their teams and no comment offered from the FIA for both cases.

Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Wed May 16, 2018 6:22 pm

McHonda wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:10 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:04 am
epo wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:39 pm

So what dude, an extra doesn't prove --- either so what exactly is your point #-o
More so the fact Ferrari did not disclose what the auxiliary tank was for at first. That rang alarm bells for me.
Hard to disclose what something you denied existed is for though,right?

Rumours about Ferrari (removing extra oil tank) seem to become accepted fact whereas rumours about Mercedes (removing "something" from ICE) seem to barely get noticed at all.

Both those rumours were denied by their teams and no comment offered from the FIA for both cases.
It also seems that the Mercedes 'thing' was removed before the season start, thus not run in a race.
Eyes peeled for a modified version soon then :D
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

McHonda
12
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by McHonda » Wed May 16, 2018 6:28 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:22 pm
McHonda wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:10 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:04 am


More so the fact Ferrari did not disclose what the auxiliary tank was for at first. That rang alarm bells for me.
Hard to disclose what something you denied existed is for though,right?

Rumours about Ferrari (removing extra oil tank) seem to become accepted fact whereas rumours about Mercedes (removing "something" from ICE) seem to barely get noticed at all.

Both those rumours were denied by their teams and no comment offered from the FIA for both cases.
It also seems that the Mercedes 'thing' was removed before the season start, thus not run in a race.
Eyes peeled for a modified version soon then :D
I wish Renault and Honda could find a few 'things' of their own as well. :twisted:

roon
310
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Wed May 16, 2018 10:21 pm

Phil wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:58 pm
I personally think the discussion should involve more about "how do they do it" (and if its feasible), rather than if it's right or wrong or cheating. The latter is very difficult to prove either way, but it's much more interesting to figure out how and where these teams derive their performance [advantage] from.

Of course Mercedes have been oil burning. Renault and Honda are both said to be hovering around 0.1l/100km while both Mercedes and Ferrari are much closer to the limit of 0.6l/100km (courtesy of AMuS). The logical conclusion is that both Mercedes and Ferrari are using more oil than Renault and Honda. On top of that, there's speculation that Ferrari could be burning even more oil [than the allowed 0.6l/100km] because of a separate oil circuit linked to the turbo, which per the regulation isn't a 'motor'. If Ferrari is doing that or if that is simply a competing team poking around in the dark making accusations based on what they think could be a loophole in the written regs, is hard to say...
Burning turbo oil outside the cylinder? Or routing the turbo oil return line back throught the engine?

Mudflap
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 pm

Interestingly, shortly after I've posted this:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21958&start=1065#p759748

FIA took measures to limit how auxiliary oil tanks are used.

Even though having an extra oil tank sounds dodgy, it has been explained to me that aux oil tanks are used by most teams as the front oil tank is very small (since it's located at the front of the engine so the smaller it is the further forward the engine can sit) so having an additional tank has been commonplace even in the NA days. How exactly they can be used to allow a higher oil consumption is anyone's guess.

Another thing to note is that in the pre-race press conference Andy Cowell mentioned that FIA has closed 'some of the oil consumption loopholes' implying that there may still be room to abuse the rules.

I've also heard about the Ferrari separate oil circuit Phil mentioned with a slightly different interpretation - the circuit was said to run through the charge air cooler ( supposedly to justify it as a cooling mechanism) and incidentally leak into the intake.

As it has been pointed out, there could be a correlation between Sassi starting at Mercedes a few months ago and all the measures and scrutiny seemingly targeted at Ferrari.

On the other hand here's also rumours that FIA are clamping down hard on Merc and Ferrari while being more lenient with Renault and Honda. I really wonder if all these technical directives double up as a subtle BOP.

Please mind the biased and speculative nature of this post.
How much TQ does it make though?

roon
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 am

scarbs wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:51 pm
All teams run extra oil tanks and these can be either carbon or flexible bag tanks. I recall Manor had an ATL oil tank in the front of the sidepods.

Mamba
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Mamba » Thu May 17, 2018 6:25 am

Mudflap wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 pm

As it has been pointed out, there could be a correlation between Sassi starting at Mercedes a few months ago and all the measures and scrutiny seemingly targeted at Ferrari.
Sassi left Ferrari in July 2017 and joined Mercedes in Desember. Would the power unit team not still be focused on the 2017 PU rather than a full scale effort on the 2018 PU at that point? Just speculation on me part!

I was also wondering, is it really possible that no-one believes that Ferrari just put in extra effort and made a big step in PU development? Look where they were in 2014. Why suddenly are there calls for illegal parts just because they finally truely match Mercedes? Of course there could well be something illegal, or there could not be. We'll see come Monaco. Was just wondering why few people tend to believe that they simply did a good job on improving the 2017 PU?

Phil
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Location: Switzerland

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Phil » Thu May 17, 2018 7:30 am

It’s the name of the game that the top team is the most scrutinized. In 2011 and beyond, the focus has been on RedBull. Then on Mercedes, though i think what helped Mercedes in 2014 and beyond, is that the whole power units were rather new and complex, so many simply accepted that Mercedes did the best job while all others struggled with power and reliability. Fast forward to 2017 and 2018 and these power units are better understood from regulators to competitors. The power gap has narrowed. This has also happened due to the scrutineering that has been going on, and lots of it can probably be traced down to oil burning, in other words oil additives. The FIA has clamped down in these areas, significantly. We have the 0.6l/100km limit, but also that only one spec of oil can now be used across the weekend. If suddenly Ferrari seems to have a stronger power unit, you can bet that Mercedes is working over time to figure out how.

Obviously with the smoke surrounding the Ferraris at start up and other tells, it seems there are still loopholes within the oil regulations that can be exploited. Certainly they did a good job, their pace is real. If it is through loopholes or not, is up to the FIA to determine. If they are, it’s either deemed legal upon which others will start doing it, or it wont, and Ferrari will have to stop. If rules have been broken, maybe there may even be consequences, but with Ferraris level of sudden cooperation, my feeling is they wont.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Wynters
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Wynters » Thu May 17, 2018 2:14 pm

Mamba wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:25 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 pm

As it has been pointed out, there could be a correlation between Sassi starting at Mercedes a few months ago and all the measures and scrutiny seemingly targeted at Ferrari.
Sassi left Ferrari in July 2017 and joined Mercedes in Desember. Would the power unit team not still be focused on the 2017 PU rather than a full scale effort on the 2018 PU at that point? Just speculation on me part!

I was also wondering, is it really possible that no-one believes that Ferrari just put in extra effort and made a big step in PU development?
If it was just putting in a bit more effort I'm surprised that Ferrari didn't put in some extra effort before now. It seems odd that they decided to perform poorly for several years before bothering to make the sort of leap which is unprecedented in the current engine era.

People are suspicious because the jump in engine performance is suspicious. It might be perfectly legitimate or it might not. Only certain individuals at Ferrari know so the rest of the world is reduced to speculate based on observation and what little measurement can be carried out. We haven't seen this sort of jump before. We haven't seen Renault or Honda closing up. We haven't seen Mercedes losing a lot of engine-related pace.