2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by NathanOlder » Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm

surely its not just the retirements though. I'd love to know how many times he has made contact with another car. I bet the figures are quite high.
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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by djos » Mon May 14, 2018 9:42 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm
surely its not just the retirements though. I'd love to know how many times he has made contact with another car. I bet the figures are quite high.
Every race weekend this year he's damaged his car, petty crazy really!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Edax » Mon May 14, 2018 10:09 pm

djos wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:42 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm
surely its not just the retirements though. I'd love to know how many times he has made contact with another car. I bet the figures are quite high.
Every race weekend this year he's damaged his car, petty crazy really!
You’re getting it all wrong. Due to lagging results and the restriction in testing the RB drivers have decided to take the aero development to themselves and extend it to the actual race.

Last race RIC opened up a new S-duct opening in his nose, the race before Max was trying a new supension configuration and this race it was Max turn again to test an assymetric front wing.

And let’s face it, he got it right this time. Before VES front wing adjustment VET was faster, while with the mod VES was gaining.

Who needs a room full of PhD’s when you have a hammer. :D

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by djos » Mon May 14, 2018 11:05 pm

:D brilliant!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by epo » Mon May 14, 2018 11:11 pm

djos wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:42 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm
surely its not just the retirements though. I'd love to know how many times he has made contact with another car. I bet the figures are quite high.
Every race weekend this year he's damaged his car, petty crazy really!
Yeah basically each session, amazing stuff heh

NL_Fer
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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by NL_Fer » Wed May 16, 2018 11:32 am

https://www.elconfidencial.com/deportes ... s_1563734/

Can anybody (Spanish) confirm this interview is authentic?

Interesting it is

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 16, 2018 5:15 pm

I think it is, El Confidencial is a spanish newspaper and they claim they talked with Ricciardo in Montmelo.


Daniel confims what I posted here, he assumed some responsability basically because he has no contract for next season so he must be polite, but he says people with some F1 knownledge know the incident was not his fault (this must hurt for some people in this thread, sorry but that´s what he said :P ). He says last movement from Max was under braking, so he had no option to avoid the crash.

He also says there´re some circumstances to consider before signing a new contract with RBR, like the PU, or other factors, alluding to RBR behaviour (over-protection) with Max

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Edax » Wed May 16, 2018 10:28 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:15 pm
I think it is, El Confidencial is a spanish newspaper and they claim they talked with Ricciardo in Montmelo.


Daniel confims what I posted here, he assumed some responsability basically because he has no contract for next season so he must be polite, but he says people with some F1 knownledge know the incident was not his fault (this must hurt for some people in this thread, sorry but that´s what he said :P ). He says last movement from Max was under braking, so he had no option to avoid the crash.

He also says there´re some circumstances to consider before signing a new contract with RBR, like the PU, or other factors, alluding to RBR behaviour (over-protection) with Max
If it wasn’t between teammates I would say yes. Irrespective of what VES did or didn’t do the descision to launch a complex overtake on his teammate late in the race when the only thing to be gained was bragging rights was not wise.

Certainly if he is considering another team. Ferrari and Mercedes would not be pleased if their second driver would be divebombing, Vettel or Hamilton at half a passing opportunity.

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Phil » Thu May 17, 2018 7:42 am

Edax wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:28 pm
If it wasn’t between teammates I would say yes. Irrespective of what VES did or didn’t do the descision to launch a complex overtake on his teammate late in the race when the only thing to be gained was bragging rights was not wise.
I wouldnt call it “launching a complex overtake”. He was driving at a much higher speed due to less drag (tow) and DRS. Essentially, across that long straight, he was much faster, gaining quickly.

He positioned his car to the right, but that space then started to narrow. In a last attempt, he then pointed his car to the new gap that was just created. At that point he was committed, a passenger. Then Max closed that gap too. Game over.

The only alternative for him would have been to abort 5 seconds earlier, brake/slow down and simply drive around the circuit following Max. Arguably, he attempted the overtake on that part of the track where an overtake had the best chance of succeeding. Giving up and simply following your team mate around the circuit wont exactly make him a more attractive driver for another team...

No matter which two drivers sit in which cars, no matter how much speed advantage the car behind brings to the table... if the car in front is allowed to move like Max did, there’s no way any safe and successful overtake can take place.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Andres125sx » Thu May 17, 2018 8:12 am

Max movement was the perfect definition of bloking, wich is moving in reaction to the chasing car, more than once, yet some people keep putting some reponsability on Daniel #-o

Phil perfectly explained how absurd is calling that a complex overtake, his speed difference thanks to DRS and the tow was way way more than enough to try. Any F1 driver not trying to pass with that speed difference does not deserve a F1 wheel IMHO

epo
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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by epo » Thu May 17, 2018 12:15 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:12 am
Max movement was the perfect definition of bloking, wich is moving in reaction to the chasing car, more than once, yet some people keep putting some reponsability on Daniel #-o

Phil perfectly explained how absurd is calling that a complex overtake, his speed difference thanks to DRS and the tow was way way more than enough to try. Any F1 driver not trying to pass with that speed difference does not deserve a F1 wheel IMHO
Daniel was stupid to make the move, I know he wants to improve his market value by beating Max but that divebomb action and his last race already lowered it again. And Max is defending, IMHO a driver who just lets everyone pass easily does not deserve a F1 wheel :D

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Sieper » Thu May 17, 2018 12:35 pm

Phil 5 seconds at 340 kmh (which was only the very topspeed reached) = 97 meter.

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Phil » Thu May 17, 2018 12:54 pm

I know. I was more thinking along the line of, when was Dan committed to an attempt at overtaking or not. He was building up speed along that long straight due to the tow and the DRS. This meant that 5 seconds before the crash, he was carrying somewhere around 30-35kmh more speed than Max.

Max at this point was driving in pretty much the middle of the road. Dan went right, upon which Max reacted. He then went towards the gap on the left, upon which Max reacted again. All the while this was happening, Dan was at a closing speed of around 9-10 meters per second.

With that much of speed excess relative to Max and less front-wing grip equals less braking and turning force, there's a point of no return when Dan becomes a passenger, because Max moved into his path with the gap closing rapidly twice and cut off all his options. Braking at that point wasn't possible, avoiding wasn't either. My point is that what people here are suggesting is that Dan should just quit racing altogether and simply follow Max around the track and not make use of DRS and tow to even attempt a legit pass.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Sieper » Thu May 17, 2018 1:34 pm

Are people suggesting that, or are people simply disagreeing (with for example Andres) to put all the blame on Max? Max wasn't in the middle of the road yet at the beginning of the clash, he moved towards the outside when Ric started the fakey, he had to do that in case Ric would be going around the outside to make it as tough as possible for him to go around the outside (but the option was still very much on the table) and in fact Ric had tried like 3 or 4 times around the outside already this race, but even with the momentum advantage, if you go around the outside (and Max makes the radius of that corner big enough) Max has the two next corners (to the left) to defend his position (which is how he successfully fended of Rics earlier attempts). It was Rics decision to then go to the inside, Ric made the call, he was trying to overtake. That Max then closes the door (with, what truthfully was only a slight move, watch the head on camera images to see that) was something Ric apparently did not expect as indeed he was unable to brake in time anymore. I don't agree Max had to let him through, Ric was still more then fully behind.

I honestly think that both misjudged the speed difference, Max closing the door not expecting a crash to be inevitable, Ric choosing to go around the inside not being 100% sure it would be a crash if the frontrunner defended his position (otherwise he wouldn't have done it, Ric is a careful driver). There is no place else in the F1 calendar where you have a 22 seconds full gas straight, with DRS for the last 1/4 of that time and with such strong headwinds as that day. Also Rics Ultras had one more lap of heat in them, so better traction at the beginning of the straight. (heat build up was a real important part of the speed you could have around Baku, took 3 laps for the tires to switch on, Hence also Max's overcut). It was just an extreme situation (a situation you can't have much experience with (so is easier to misjudge)) as it is never there anywhere else, that both misjudged.

Ric has now also stated in his Spain Low Down that he truthfully was surpised that Kimi and Max (and after Kimi's engine gave the spirit) Max alone pulled a gap on him (9 seconds in 12 laps). Maybe Ric at the moment (without a contract) is trying a bit to hard to show the world how good he is. His quality usually lies in his extreme ability to optimize the overall result. In this case that would have meant taking the less dangerous option around the outside (and possibly fail at it) and then Max's own set of Ultras would have been up to temperature (after 2 full laps) so in the next round I don't hink Ric would have been within DRS still. A uncharacteristic do or die effort, now they both died. For which both share blame.

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Re: 2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

Post by Wouter » Thu May 17, 2018 1:58 pm

Sieper wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:34 pm
...........
A uncharacteristic do or die effort, now they both died. For which both share blame.
I totally agree with you except with your last sentence.
Ricciardo, with his many dive-bombs experience, should know that things would go wrong at that high speed. He is used to everyone going aside for him. Max does not. Only if it is a team order.