Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

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Edax
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Edax » Wed May 16, 2018 6:40 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:34 pm
I'm sorry but I must disagree, the system is totally time based and does not care about track position(other than the mini sectors and marshaling posts). Wheel rotation is of no consequence because they are always spinning the wheels, or weaving for tire temp. The ecu is given a "target time" for vsc and that is what the drivers must drive to. VET is mistaken or lying, which wouldn't be the first time. Charlie has proven himself incompetent on many occasions. The cars do not count wheel rotations to determine position on track. Please read the relevant section of the regulations again posted above again.
Let me explain my problem. The F1 cars have a transponder and a GPS, supplied by AMB as per technical regulations. These are part of an electrical ciruit controlled by the FIA. In this circuit you will find the microphones, the cameras etc. It is read our/controlled via the little antenna on the nose. That system supplies for instance the speed information on the onboards.

Then you have the electrical architecture of the car itself, this carries all the sensors, ECU, the steering wheel controls, screen etc.

There is a good reason to isolate these two systems because the last thing you want is a FIA component causing a car error. Secondly you don’t want a GPS feed into the ECU because it makes it much to tempting to link it to PU management.

As far as I know there are only two connections between these systems. The audio is spliced so Charly can speak to the drivers, and there is a link to the three warning lights on the steering wheel.

So the question is, if they use the transponders/GPS where does the FIA calculate the delta time and how do they feed it to the car/steering wheel screen?

Phil
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Phil » Wed May 16, 2018 6:45 pm

notsofast wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:30 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:10 pm
Something else. 40% of the time. What time? if a Merc is in clear air 'hammertime' style and Sirotkin is in fuel saving mode on the same straight at the same time?
Or worse, If the leading Ferrari is in fuel save mode and the following Merc is in 'hammertime' the time can differ by upto (say) 3 seconds a lap? Do they both get the same time or can the following Merc close up?
I hope that the objective of the VSC is to ensure that all gaps at the end of the VSC period are the same as before the VSC period. This would imply that all drivers should be driving at the same speed during the VSC period. Otherwise we end up with exactly the unfair situations that you're describing.
That doesnt work. Keeping the speeds the same will hurt those more that are longer on straights vs those that are in the corners (aka a slower sector). Therefore, it will always hurt some more than others. By simply adding a fixed percentage to everyones laptime, the gaps should remain consistent (assuming every driver receives the same delta).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II
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AJI
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by AJI » Wed May 16, 2018 10:06 pm

Phil wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:45 pm
notsofast wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:30 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:10 pm
Something else. 40% of the time. What time? if a Merc is in clear air 'hammertime' style and Sirotkin is in fuel saving mode on the same straight at the same time?
Or worse, If the leading Ferrari is in fuel save mode and the following Merc is in 'hammertime' the time can differ by upto (say) 3 seconds a lap? Do they both get the same time or can the following Merc close up?
I hope that the objective of the VSC is to ensure that all gaps at the end of the VSC period are the same as before the VSC period. This would imply that all drivers should be driving at the same speed during the VSC period. Otherwise we end up with exactly the unfair situations that you're describing.
That doesnt work. Keeping the speeds the same will hurt those more that are longer on straights vs those that are in the corners (aka a slower sector). Therefore, it will always hurt some more than others. By simply adding a fixed percentage to everyones laptime, the gaps should remain consistent (assuming every driver receives the same delta).
Okay, I watched the VSC part of the race again, several times...
The interval between cars was displayed for a large portion of the VSC, is updated very frequently and was quite interesting to watch. They obviously receive a target delta that is the same for all cars.
I can only assume this is GPS based as the offical timing system is only located at three points on the track.
BOT was ~24 seconds away from HAM at the start of the VSC, and ~23 seconds away from HAM at the end. VER was ~33 seconds start VSC and ~35 seconds end VSC. RIC was ~46 seconds start and ~47 seconds off just before his spin.
The numbers bounce around quite a lot but they maintain a pretty reasonable gap at all times. I assume they just get an + or - or up or down indication on the wheel for the whole VSC period.
In short, I fail to see any significance in this loop hole that VET is suggesting as the gap at the beginning of the VSC and the gap at the end is the same, no matter what line you take (unless you pit at the WRONG time, or spin).

IMHO, I think VET is simply a sore loser and is trying to deflect because his and Ferrari's bone head decision to pit didn't work. The really stupid part is, it was never going work! He didn't have enough of a gap to BOT and he knew BOT wasn't stopping, there was a message from BOT to the team only a few laps before that the tyres were fine.

That said, I'd still like to know the exact detail of how the VSC works.

Phil
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Phil » Thu May 17, 2018 7:45 am

If you have the data, could you check the gaps before the VSC and after the VSC period? That might be more accurate...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II
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Phil
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Phil » Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 pm

Never mind, I did it myself, from the FIA official history lap chart. Unfortuately, at that point, everyone outside the top 6 were already lapped, so I only have those...

Before the VSC (lap 40)

1. Hamilton
2. Vettel (+12.933s)
3. Bottas (+15.109s)
4. Verstappen (+22.331s)
5. Ricciardo (+32.948s)
6. Magnussen (+83.718s)

After the VSC (lap 44)

1. Hamilton
2. Bottas (+ 15.294s)
3. Verstappen (+ 25.306s)
4. Vettel (+ 27.502s)
5. Ricciardo (+ 45.673s)
6. Magnussen (+ 68.069s)

Obviously, we need to ignore Vettel, because he stopped. But the intervals are rather interesting:

Interval before/after VSC gaps:

- Hamilton / Bottas (+0.185s)
- Bottas / Verstappen (+2.79s) WOW!
- Verstappen / Ricciardo (+7.554s) (Ricciardo spun under VSC)
- Ricciardo / Magnussen (-28.374s) (again, Ricciardo spun under VSC)
- Verstappen / Magnussen (-18.624s) (???)

Whatever happened, Hamilton / Bottas remained quite constant, but somehow Magnussen gained quite a bit of time after the VSC period relative to pretty much everyone ahead of him. My explanation is that the VSC didn't start/restart at the same spot a few laps later, but at different points, meaning that a driver who just passed a long straight before the VSC ended might be hurt more than a driver who is just about to enter it. Obviously, Magnussen gained because he was in a totally different sector relative to the rest as the VSC started/restarted.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II
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NathanOlder
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by NathanOlder » Thu May 17, 2018 1:12 pm

yeah being in a different sector may help some, but he almost saved enough time to pass through a whole sector!

Is the gap between Bottas and Max after he had the run in with Stroll, which obviously would cost him a few seconds, damaging the car, a lift and running off the racing line, plus he locked up in to the chicane just after this moment. KMag really did take the pi$$ somehow.
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Yurasyk
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Yurasyk » Thu May 17, 2018 1:13 pm

IIRC Vet suddenly was 20 seconds behind Hamilton before his pit instead of 12. That mean he lost a few seconds somewhere. I doubt VSC allows you to gain much time (except a few borderline situations and pitstops), but you clearly can loose a lot if you won't be on the time edge.

Phil
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Phil » Thu May 17, 2018 1:30 pm

Yurasyk: When the VSC delta laptime hits, the gaps between drivers increase (because they are all driving slower).

Example: 10s gap at 360kmh = 360/3.6 = 100m/s*10 = 1000m.

To keep the gap at 1000m at reduced speed, the time gap increases.

In other words, under VSC, everyone's timed gaps increased (and then normalized after the VSC).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II
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NathanOlder
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by NathanOlder » Thu May 17, 2018 1:37 pm

Yurasyk wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:13 pm
IIRC Vet suddenly was 20 seconds behind Hamilton before his pit instead of 12. That mean he lost a few seconds somewhere. I doubt VSC allows you to gain much time (except a few borderline situations and pitstops), but you clearly can loose a lot if you won't be on the time edge.
Vettel was 13 seconds behind Hamilton when the VSC was deployed for Perez's car. Once they slowed down to VSC speeds, Vettel was on average 20 seconds behind Hamilton under the VSC. The gap grows because the cars are moving slower. but as soon as they go back to racing speed, the gap would go back to around 13 seconds.

Edit. What Phil said.
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Yurasyk
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Yurasyk » Thu May 17, 2018 4:16 pm

That's correct explanation. Thanks.

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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by nevill3 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:40 pm

40.5 All competing cars must reduce speed and stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at
least once
in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track
between each of the FIA light panels).
Maybe the loophole is in the emboldened bit above?

At least once, so in a section they have to be above the minimum time only once. So if they are above the time at the start of a section as the VSC is ending and drive a shorter distance at increased speed to the next sector just as the VSC ends they will have a small gain relative to anyone else.

As for any other gains it must depend on whether the sections are timed in seconds or average speed. The wording suggests seconds, and I remember reading the time delta is calculated from the previous three (or four) laps. If this on an individual basis some drivers will be going faster than others, if it is taken as an average across the entire field then they should all be relatively equal, which is one of the intended aims of the VSC. The differences being where they were when the VSC is triggered i.e. just before a long straight or at the end and in a slower sector and the
same when the VSC ends.
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Edax
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Edax » Thu May 17, 2018 9:11 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 pm
Never mind, I did it myself, from the FIA official history lap chart. Unfortuately, at that point, everyone outside the top 6 were already lapped, so I only have those...

Before the VSC (lap 40)

1. Hamilton
2. Vettel (+12.933s)
3. Bottas (+15.109s)
4. Verstappen (+22.331s)
5. Ricciardo (+32.948s)
6. Magnussen (+83.718s)

After the VSC (lap 44)

1. Hamilton
2. Bottas (+ 15.294s)
3. Verstappen (+ 25.306s)
4. Vettel (+ 27.502s)
5. Ricciardo (+ 45.673s)
6. Magnussen (+ 68.069s)

Obviously, we need to ignore Vettel, because he stopped. But the intervals are rather interesting:

Interval before/after VSC gaps:

- Hamilton / Bottas (+0.185s)
- Bottas / Verstappen (+2.79s) WOW!
- Verstappen / Ricciardo (+7.554s) (Ricciardo spun under VSC)
- Ricciardo / Magnussen (-28.374s) (again, Ricciardo spun under VSC)
- Verstappen / Magnussen (-18.624s) (???)

Whatever happened, Hamilton / Bottas remained quite constant, but somehow Magnussen gained quite a bit of time after the VSC period relative to pretty much everyone ahead of him. My explanation is that the VSC didn't start/restart at the same spot a few laps later, but at different points, meaning that a driver who just passed a long straight before the VSC ended might be hurt more than a driver who is just about to enter it. Obviously, Magnussen gained because he was in a totally different sector relative to the rest as the VSC started/restarted.
I think the worst is when you restart on a straight. The time lost is the time that you need to accellerate from the VSC speed to the racing speed. Percentage wise it makes no difference if you accelerate from 50 to 100 or from 150 to 300, but in acceleration time it does. And that means someone in a hairpin is faster at racing speed than someone in the middle of a straight.

But looking at the time difference it cannot explain all. there seems to be a way to drive around the regulations. In the F2 race apparently it was the same

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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by AJI » Fri May 18, 2018 6:32 am

Phil wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 pm
Whatever happened, Hamilton / Bottas remained quite constant, but somehow Magnussen gained quite a bit of time after the VSC period relative to pretty much everyone ahead of him. My explanation is that the VSC didn't start/restart at the same spot a few laps later, but at different points, meaning that a driver who just passed a long straight before the VSC ended might be hurt more than a driver who is just about to enter it. Obviously, Magnussen gained because he was in a totally different sector relative to the rest as the VSC started/restarted.
I think this is the problem with the VSC that VET thinks is a 'distance' issue. The whole track goes into VSC and out of VSC at the same time, no matter where you are. If you've just finished a fast sector you get an advantage over someone behind who will have just started it and vice versa. The only way to make it fair would be that each car goes into and out of 'VSC delta mode' at the same point on the track. The first people who pass the sector where the incident happened before the deployment of VSC will always get an advantage, but if it's timed correctly then the last car that got that advantage should be the last car to come out of VSC..?

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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by SiLo » Fri May 18, 2018 1:36 pm

AJI wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:32 am
Phil wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 pm
Whatever happened, Hamilton / Bottas remained quite constant, but somehow Magnussen gained quite a bit of time after the VSC period relative to pretty much everyone ahead of him. My explanation is that the VSC didn't start/restart at the same spot a few laps later, but at different points, meaning that a driver who just passed a long straight before the VSC ended might be hurt more than a driver who is just about to enter it. Obviously, Magnussen gained because he was in a totally different sector relative to the rest as the VSC started/restarted.
I think this is the problem with the VSC that VET thinks is a 'distance' issue. The whole track goes into VSC and out of VSC at the same time, no matter where you are. If you've just finished a fast sector you get an advantage over someone behind who will have just started it and vice versa. The only way to make it fair would be that each car goes into and out of 'VSC delta mode' at the same point on the track. The first people who pass the sector where the incident happened before the deployment of VSC will always get an advantage, but if it's timed correctly then the last car that got that advantage should be the last car to come out of VSC..?
This could actually work with the mini sectors. Driver has to put car into VSC at X mini sector and can come out at point Y. The VSC will clear once all drivers have gone through the zone at least once.

So if there are some drivers in the VSC zone at the time it 'ends' the zone does not clear until the rest of the pack have gone through it. This way everyone goes through the zone the same amount of times and has the same amount of time loss. Even better is you can mandate a speed limit rather than a percentage of a lap limit.
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Re: Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

Post by Sieper » Fri May 18, 2018 2:07 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:12 pm
yeah being in a different sector may help some, but he almost saved enough time to pass through a whole sector!

Is the gap between Bottas and Max after he had the run in with Stroll, which obviously would cost him a few seconds, damaging the car, a lift and running off the racing line, plus he locked up in to the chicane just after this moment. KMag really did take the pi$$ somehow.
Verstappen was already stuck behind Stroll (who was weaving all over the straight to keep his tire temp up) on the straight before Vettel exited the Pit. If stroll would have gone just a tad slower then he already was Vettel would have exited the Pits in front of Verstappen. At that moment Verstappen had already lost the seconds (I was keeping an eye out on the intervals constantly). That was also why he was smack death behind Stroll on VSC end, he had to be there to be in front of Vettel, and that is also why he was so keen on accelerating immediately upon green (Stroll not so much, went of his gas again) as he probably feared Vettel to jump him on green.

Also, in reply to Phil, I think Ricciardo spun after the VSC ended (not under). The gap (interval on the TV screen, I have not other info during the race) Max had to Danny suddenly increased drastically (and this was just after the VSC had gone away).