919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

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bill shoe
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919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by bill shoe » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:31 am

Porsche has set the lap record at Spa, beating the F1 mark by ~ 1 second or so in a modified 919 LeMans car. But still a record against contemporary F1 cars in a qualifying session. Let's agree the 919 is fast.

Now Porsche has taken that car to the Nürburgring. The track of endless self-declared "best-in-class" records for tuner-cars and hyper-cars. The actual no-excuses Nurburgring lap record still belongs to Stefan Bellof in an as-delivered-from-factory-with-ignition-key-to-turn-it-on Porsche 956 endurance racer. The time was set during a qualifying session for a race, so the car met all the normal rule restrictions for a LeMans sports car prototype circa 1983. The time was: 6:11.13.

That was 35 years ago. High performance car engineering has progressed massively over the last 35 year. But the wanna-be's at Nurburgring still talk of a mystical "street-legal" class. It's a polite way of saying they can't beat a 35-year-old endurance racer with all the money in the world and not a whiff of street-legal reality to actually impede them.

Now Porsche is there to do some grown-up, serious, Engineered lap times. Not with a show-car or concept-car, but with (really) a lightly-modified LeMans car, again an endurance car.

Reminds me of Pike's Peak, the ever-trendy U.S. hillclimb, in 2013, when Peugeot showed up with a quick-n-dirty car from a grown-up rally team. It posted an 8:13.something. They destroyed the wanna-be tuner cars that had dominated the mountain until then. The tuner-folks said Pugeot got lucky with conditions, with weather, with pavement, with phases of the moon, and that soon a tuner-car would beat the Peugeot record. Yea. Peugeot never bothered to come back and five years later the all-time second fastest run on Pike's Peak is an 8:51.irrelevant. If Pike's Peak was a late-80's F1 qualifying session, the all-time second-place car would be outside the 107% zone and would not be allowed into the race regardless of how slow the other competitors were. I think this is the biggest gap between all-time first and second for a long-standing, recognized, sanctioned car-competition event. Anywhere. OK, I've flogged this "wanna-be" horse long enough and I'm stopping.

Porsche is at Nürburgring to be Porsche. They will go deep into the 5's. Everyone else will sit down and watch the adults. How fast will the Porsche 919 go? And how long will it take to beat it?

roon
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by roon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:23 am

Porsche and Peugeot probably had significantly larger budgets and more personnel than those you're referring to as wanna-bes. They're working within their means. Sometimes that entails starting from a production car with off the shelf components. Regardless, there are actually many prototype vehicles developed within those smaller budgets for use in the Pikes Peak rally. See Palatov, Lovefab, Millen's PM580, the custom open wheel tube-frame entries, and so on.

jjn9128
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:12 am

Sorry, lightly modified?? They've thrown all the rules out the window. It's likely they'll beat the laptime - if they don't flip at some point.
Jin.
#aerogandalf

turbof1
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by turbof1 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:52 am

Now Porsche is there to do some grown-up, serious, Engineered lap times. Not with a show-car or concept-car, but with (really) a lightly-modified LeMans car, again an endurance car.
"Yeah we only did some very light modifications. You know, merely some fine tuning:
Completely changed the front splitter, huge rear wing with leverage to increase downforce massively. As you can see just a small bit here and there added.
Some very, very light active aerodynamics. Front and rear become almost aero neutral on the straight, so almost no meaningful impact. F1 definitely sneezes at that.
Finally, we barely gave an eye to the power unit. Chip tuning would have probably given more than the measely 249 bhp we gained. You know, the sort of bhp you immediately loose again when you sneeze at the car.

Just some light modifications."

Just_a_fan
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:55 am

Exactly - the 919 is not "lightly modified".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

J.A.W.
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by J.A.W. » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:59 am

jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:12 am
Sorry, lightly modified?? They've thrown all the rules out the window. It's likely they'll beat the laptime - if they don't flip at some point.
Correct, its a stunt.. since Porsche could very likely snatch a 'ring record - by dragging an ancient CanAm 917 turbo
out of their museum - give it a basic 'modern-spec upgrade' ( rubber/brakes/turbo/aero)
& then feed the big beast.. a decently fearless driver.. to thrash it mercilessly hard, 'round the 'ring..
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

sosic2121
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by sosic2121 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:00 am

turbof1 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:52 am
Now Porsche is there to do some grown-up, serious, Engineered lap times. Not with a show-car or concept-car, but with (really) a lightly-modified LeMans car, again an endurance car.
"Yeah we only did some very light modifications. You know, merely some fine tuning:
Completely changed the front splitter, huge rear wing with leverage to increase downforce massively. As you can see just a small bit here and there added.
Some very, very light active aerodynamics. Front and rear become almost aero neutral on the straight, so almost no meaningful impact. F1 definitely sneezes at that.
Finally, we barely gave an eye to the power unit. Chip tuning would have probably given more than the measely 249 bhp we gained. You know, the sort of bhp you immediately loose again when you sneeze at the car.

Just some light modifications."
+1

roon
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by roon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:24 pm

Looks quick at 1:06.


J.A.W.
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:47 am

Yeah, its too bad though, that it sounds like.. a worn-out Moto GP bike.. running on 1/2 throttle/rpm..

(She's still better aurally.. than a 100% 'eggbeater-electric' machine, even so..)
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

bill shoe
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by bill shoe » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:17 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:55 am
Exactly - the 919 is not "lightly modified".
I figure if you make a spectrum where a bone-stock WEC-legal 919 is 0%, and a clean sheet of paper never-had-any-relation-to-919 car is 100%, then the modified 919 is maybe 15%.

If you had unlimited resources and wanted to set laptimes then you'd never start with a 919. The fact that Porsche is using all the core parts of a 919 makes it a bit more impressive to me. Guess eye of the beholder.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:40 pm

bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:17 pm

If you had unlimited resources and wanted to set laptimes then you'd never start with a 919. The fact that Porsche is using all the core parts of a 919 makes it a bit more impressive to me. Guess eye of the beholder.
The reason Porsche are doing this is to show that the WEC rules are rubbish (in their opinion) and that given the chance they could do so much more. It's their version of the F1 drivers saying how dull Monaco was (and F1 is generally at the moment), if you like.

I think adding something like 50% more downforce, adding power and reducing weight is not a "light modification", more a "thorough re-engineering". Sure, given a clean sheet of paper they'd be able to do even more, but that wouldn't fit their current political requirements. It also would require a lot of resource whereas the 919 already exists and can be modified more readily than starting from scratch.

Don't get me wrong - the car is a monster and we should all be glad that Porsche did it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

jjn9128
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by jjn9128 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:00 pm

bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:55 am
Exactly - the 919 is not "lightly modified".
I figure if you make a spectrum where a bone-stock WEC-legal 919 is 0%, and a clean sheet of paper never-had-any-relation-to-919 car is 100%, then the modified 919 is maybe 15%.

If you had unlimited resources and wanted to set laptimes then you'd never start with a 919. The fact that Porsche is using all the core parts of a 919 makes it a bit more impressive to me. Guess eye of the beholder.
I'm sorry but the bodywork is almost 100% different. The front end is longer, with a massive wing/diffuser. The rear wing is completely different - it has a huge chord compared to a P1 wing with those massive endplates! Both are active. The underbody is also completely different with side skirts and a massive rear diffuser - no relation to a P1 floor. The front and rear fenders are again massively modified - shape, size, no vents. The only bodywork which remains identical is the safety cell - which a obviously safety thing.

Then there's the engine. While it's still the same 2li v4-turbo that's about the end of it. Get rid of the fuel flow limit and rewrite the maps and it's basically a different engine. Call that a 50% change - same architecture different everything else.

So using your scale it's more like 75% different!
Jin.
#aerogandalf

roon
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by roon » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:20 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:00 pm
bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:55 am
Exactly - the 919 is not "lightly modified".
I figure if you make a spectrum where a bone-stock WEC-legal 919 is 0%, and a clean sheet of paper never-had-any-relation-to-919 car is 100%, then the modified 919 is maybe 15%.

If you had unlimited resources and wanted to set laptimes then you'd never start with a 919. The fact that Porsche is using all the core parts of a 919 makes it a bit more impressive to me. Guess eye of the beholder.
I'm sorry but the bodywork is almost 100% different. The front end is longer, with a massive wing/diffuser. The rear wing is completely different - it has a huge chord compared to a P1 wing with those massive endplates! Both are active. The underbody is also completely different with side skirts and a massive rear diffuser - no relation to a P1 floor. The front and rear fenders are again massively modified - shape, size, no vents. The only bodywork which remains identical is the safety cell - which a obviously safety thing.
Same canopy and windows, engine intake, doors, radiators inlets and ducts. Sidepods look the same. Mid underbody is the same for all we know. Wheels look the same. The bulk of the chassis, gearbox, engine, suspension will be the same. Springs and gear ratios likely to have been changed, but these are normal per-race component changes. Interior is the same barring removal of air conditioning and drinks system (they mentioned these were removed in light of the sprint/TT/TA only use).

I do wonder about the tires. Did they shave 12 seconds off the Spa lap while using LMP spec tires?

jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:00 pm
Then there's the engine. While it's still the same 2li v4-turbo that's about the end of it. Get rid of the fuel flow limit and rewrite the maps and it's basically a different engine. Call that a 50% change - same architecture different everything else.
Rewriting some of the engine code =/= creating new engine components from scratch. Rewriting engine computer code does not physically alter the design of the existing, installed engine components.

This is a weird thread full of strange claims.

Megacorp scale funding and personnel = adulthood (?)
Bodywork and software constitutes all or most of a vehicle (?)

jjn9128
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by jjn9128 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:15 pm

roon wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:20 pm
Same canopy and windows, engine intake, doors, radiators inlets and ducts. Sidepods look the same. Mid underbody is the same for all we know. Wheels look the same. The bulk of the chassis, gearbox, engine, suspension will be the same. Springs and gear ratios likely to have been changed, but these are normal per-race component changes. Interior is the same barring removal of air conditioning and drinks system (they mentioned these were removed in light of the sprint/TT/TA only use).

Rewriting some of the engine code =/= creating new engine components from scratch. Rewriting engine computer code does not physically alter the design of the existing, installed engine components.

This is a weird thread full of strange claims.

Megacorp scale funding and personnel = adulthood (?)
Bodywork and software constitutes all or most of a vehicle (?)
The point is that the car is not lightly modified - maybe the powertrain could be considered thus - but the aero and bodywork are almost completely redesigned. I don't see how this is contentious... The 2021 F1 engine rules will still be 1.6li v6-turbos, doesn't change the fact the engine would have to be redesigned to accommodate the loss of the MGU-H. Same basic architecture... entirely different philosophy.

This is a technical forum where we discuss how the minutiae of design makes big differences, it's possible for something to look the same but be fundamentally different.

For the record I like the car, I think it's really cool to see what can be achieved when regulations are binned, but all it will ever be is a PR stunt. "Faster than an F1 car" is utterly meaningless as F1 is artificially restricted by rules for safety, or the show, or whatever.
Jin.
#aerogandalf

Just_a_fan
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Re: 919 at Nurburgring: The Adults Have Entered The Room

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:56 pm

I'd love to see Mercedes produce a one-off F1-car-without-the-rules and show Porsche that their 1 second gain over current F1 is really not that great. Imagine adding 25% or more downforce (could an F1 car get 50% more?) plus some extra power/electrical grunt to a current F1 car. That 1 second "record" by Porsche would look very slow... =D>
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."