Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm

If they make a new S2000 I'm in. I was a little disappointed with the type R, it's no faster on track than a lightly tuned S2k.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Talisman
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Talisman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:15 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:11 pm
Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
I think Honda always did want to keep the MGUH but are simply politically invisible so didn't publicise that until now. I don't understand why Honda continue with this kind of attitude towards politics as it has cost them a lot throughout their history. Even when the current engine regulations were being drawn up and Honda were rumoured to be interested they didn't bother turning up to the meetings were the new rules were discussed. Even companies that had little interest in F1 turned up to those.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm
without the MGU-H they would surely use twin turbochargers - so reducing lag

no doubt Mercedes efficiency figures are for performance when not burning fuel to make electricity
burning fuel to make electricity is energy accumulation - but energy accumulation from fuel accumulation is of course banned
energy accumulation has the wonderful property of allowing energy to be used when most laptime-effective
Twin turbochargers would bring a slight efficiency penalty so that might be a difficult decision - in a fuel-flow restricted formula.

The efficiency claims - as you say - would be based on crankshaft output plus MGUH output with no flow to or from the ES. I wonder how close they are approaching the point where the MGUH output is greater than the 120 kW they are allowed to send to the MGUK?
je suis charlie

Bence
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bence » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:45 pm

wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 am
Bence wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 am
Where does fuel consumption really counts in flat-out racing?
Better fuel efficiency = less fuel carried = better lap times.

Since the ban on refuelling the teams have regularly under-filled their cars, which requires periods of fuel saving. They do this because the lap time gain from lower weight is greater than that lost from lower power settings.
Of course I meant the spectator POV, not the engineering side.

Edit: if you watched the fire-up video of the Beast of Turin Fiat and you hairs were as little nails, you know what I'm talking about. Big, unrefined, slurps fuel like a legion in an oasis, fiery, luscious pleasure, mechanical libido sculptured in metal = a MONSTER. Like those old 505/525kg cars powered by 1500hp quali engines.
And no, it's not for the 1980s sake - rather in the spirit of Soichiro Honda. Honda needs to set its targets toward the impossible. That spurs development, because real thinkers must continually tap the morphogenetic field to get their aha-moments/brilliant ideas.

True road relevance does not exist. Hybrids gave F1 their tech first, so it's rather F1/sport relevance. Artificial. Automakers can not use their innovations lying in the dark drawers/individual inventions, if it conflicts the Big Oil. Remember the destroyed/suppressed high mileage carbs? You should.
Last edited by Bence on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:08 am

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm
I wonder how close they are approaching the point where the MGUH output is greater than the 120 kW they are allowed to send to the MGUK?
I wouldn't be surprised if Merc had it from the start. Part of their strategic sandbagging. Since 2014 there had been the opportunity to have full duration use of the MGUK so long as your H was big enough to power it directly. Power gains observed over the seasons could have come mainly or exclusively from combustion/ICE development, with electric drive develoments largely static.

The H has a min. weight limit and max. rotation speed, the K has a min. weight limit and max. power output, the ES has a min. weight limit and a max. capacity limit. So there's not much room for development of those items, outside of reliability. Hence why some favor ditching the H, losing an intermittent H-to-K 120kW, and regaining it with ICE dev & increased K output.
Last edited by roon on Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bence
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bence » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:33 am

roon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:08 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Merc had it from the start. Part of their strategic sandbagging. Since 2014 there had been the opportunity to have full duration use of the MGUK so long as your H was big enough to power it directly. Power gains observed over the seasons could have come mainly or exclusively from combustion/ICE development, with electric drive developments largely static.
Point.

And exactly the interpretation side was Honda's weakness. They built primarily a V6, spiced up with a turbocharger, and secondarily a hybrid electric part as a side. Strictly 160/33.33. And then came the OOPS moment.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am

So how much is it a technology and engineering deficit and how much of it is purely down to running the power unit in the right way? I understand the two are related to an extent but surely the deficit favors one side of the spectrum.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:15 am

hurril wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:10 pm
We could have F1 classic too where we could say that they have to run V10 or V12, 3.0 liters, mechanical injection and that's that. I would probably watch that as well, but making F1 become some bastardised sanctuary for the 1980:ies is just boring. What we have now is awesome, the MGU-h is part of the reason that I watch it.
Me too

Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:39 am

roon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:08 am
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm
I wonder how close they are approaching the point where the MGUH output is greater than the 120 kW they are allowed to send to the MGUK?
I wouldn't be surprised if Merc had it from the start. Part of their strategic sandbagging. Since 2014 there had been the opportunity to have full duration use of the MGUK so long as your H was big enough to power it directly. Power gains observed over the seasons could have come mainly or exclusively from combustion/ICE development, with electric drive develoments largely static.

The H has a min. weight limit and max. rotation speed, the K has a min. weight limit and max. power output, the ES has a min. weight limit and a max. capacity limit. So there's not much room for development of those items, outside of reliability. Hence why some favor ditching the H, losing an intermittent H-to-K 120kW, and regaining it with ICE dev & increased K output.
Although the H has a max Rev limit, does it have a max dia? There is a lot of scope here is there not?
I know it has to be driven and every little makes the acceleration (of the rotating section) slower, but there is more area and rim speed for the same RPM?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 am

The ES only has a deployment limit to the K. There is no capacity limit.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:54 am

the rules incl. the electrical side's are designed to frustrate in every way a major departure from the piston engine
maybe people should accept that ?
ok 3 companies designers failed to appreciate the extent of what was available within the rules

given that the H is a c.100 kW machine 125000 rpm is as fast as mechanical and electrical factors allow
otoh neither greater diameter nor greater length are possible at 125000 rpm - it's a miracle already

of course the H could in principle exceed 120 kW any time - by raising exhaust pressure and so reducing crankshaft power
this might imo increase PU efficiency - but would need a raised K power/torque and ES limits to benefit properly
and rules allowing multi-stage and VG compressor and turbine would help in this (uninvention of the piston engine)

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm

We need an Italian user.
Nessuno ha confermato niente, tuttavia, nella gara di casa della Red Bull in Austria e in Gran Bretagna, la squadra italiana e il motorista del Sol Levante hanno deciso di sfruttare l’occasione dei guai in qualifica e in prova di Hartley per testare delle novità sul propulsore. Un ‘upgrade’, quello di Spielberg, che avrebbe portato alla sostituzione tutti gli elementi della power unit per via di modifiche legate all’hardware. Esperimenti che con ogni probabilità sono stati accelerati anche dall’accordo con Red Bull che vuole avere fin dal primo GP del 2019 un V6 in grado di lottare per le vittorie.
Nobody has confirmed nothing, however, in the contest of house of Red Bull in Austria and Great Britain, the Italian team and the engineer of Sol Levante they have decided to take advantage of the occasion of the troubles in qualification and test of Hartley in order to test of the innovations on the propeller. A “upgrade”, that of Spielberg, that it would have carried to the substitution all the elements of the power unit for via of modifications tied to the hardware. Experiments that in all probability are accelerated also by the agreement with Red Bull that it since wants to have the first GP of a 2019 V6 in a position to fighting for the victories.
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 91340.html

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:41 pm

HPD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm
We need an Italian user.
Nessuno ha confermato niente, tuttavia, nella gara di casa della Red Bull in Austria e in Gran Bretagna, la squadra italiana e il motorista del Sol Levante hanno deciso di sfruttare l’occasione dei guai in qualifica e in prova di Hartley per testare delle novità sul propulsore. Un ‘upgrade’, quello di Spielberg, che avrebbe portato alla sostituzione tutti gli elementi della power unit per via di modifiche legate all’hardware. Esperimenti che con ogni probabilità sono stati accelerati anche dall’accordo con Red Bull che vuole avere fin dal primo GP del 2019 un V6 in grado di lottare per le vittorie.
Nobody has confirmed nothing, however, in the contest of house of Red Bull in Austria and Great Britain, the Italian team and the engineer of Sol Levante they have decided to take advantage of the occasion of the troubles in qualification and test of Hartley in order to test of the innovations on the propeller. A “upgrade”, that of Spielberg, that it would have carried to the substitution all the elements of the power unit for via of modifications tied to the hardware. Experiments that in all probability are accelerated also by the agreement with Red Bull that it since wants to have the first GP of a 2019 V6 in a position to fighting for the victories.
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 91340.html
No one has confirmed anything, however, in Red Bull's home race in Austria as well as Great Britain, the Italian team and engine manufacturer of the Rising Sun (Japanese), have decided to take advantage of Hartley's issues in practice and quali to test some updates on the [Propeller? Propulsion?] (Not sure what they are referring to - it could be turbo, engine or mgu-k). The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved.

These were experiments which were most probably accelerated in agreement with Red Bull, who from the very first GP in 2019, would like to have a 'V6' which can fight for victories.

Note - I'm not native Italian, but am a proficient user of the language. The term propulsore is quite tricky in this context. Even tried to ask an Italian colleague, but he wasn't sure either. Will try to find out.

techman
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by techman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:46 pm

^ i guess honda is trying to start early in preparation for 2019, which is a good thing

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:41 pm
HPD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm
We need an Italian user.
Nessuno ha confermato niente, tuttavia, nella gara di casa della Red Bull in Austria e in Gran Bretagna, la squadra italiana e il motorista del Sol Levante hanno deciso di sfruttare l’occasione dei guai in qualifica e in prova di Hartley per testare delle novità sul propulsore. Un ‘upgrade’, quello di Spielberg, che avrebbe portato alla sostituzione tutti gli elementi della power unit per via di modifiche legate all’hardware. Esperimenti che con ogni probabilità sono stati accelerati anche dall’accordo con Red Bull che vuole avere fin dal primo GP del 2019 un V6 in grado di lottare per le vittorie.


https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 91340.html
No one has confirmed anything, however, in Red Bull's home race in Austria as well as Great Britain, the Italian team and engine manufacturer of the Rising Sun (Japanese), have decided to take advantage of Hartley's issues in practice and quali to test some updates on the [Propeller? Propulsion?] (Not sure what they are referring to - it could be turbo, engine or mgu-k). The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved.

These were experiments which were most probably accelerated in agreement with Red Bull, who from the very first GP in 2019, would like to have a 'V6' which can fight for victories.

Note - I'm not native Italian, but am a proficient user of the language. The term propulsore is quite tricky in this context. Even tried to ask an Italian colleague, but he wasn't sure either. Will try to find out.
Confirmed that in this context, 'propulsore' refers to the Power Unit.