Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Manoah2u
317
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:39 am

strad wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:56 pm
I suggest we discount DRS over takes from that equation.
the overtakes of vettel on hamilton, and raikkonen on bottas, would have been made even without DRS.
add to that the magnificient corner-to-corner wheel-to-wheel battle between raikkonen and verstappen,
there was zero DRS involvement there.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

TwanV
23
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:41 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by TwanV » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:15 am

Something we saw earlier in the 80s with the turbo-cars.. the only issue currently in F1 that is bad for overtaking in theory is the fuel flow and quantity restriction. However.. this is keeping the Renault powered cars in the game. We all saw what happened at the 2nd restart in Silverstone, massive power differences. No wonder Toto is looking to add more kgs of fuel.

strad
256
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:50 pm

the overtakes of vettel on hamilton, and raikkonen on bottas, would have been made even without DRS.
.
I'm sorry, Where did I say all the passing was DRS aided?
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Powerslide
9
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:19 am
Location: Land Below The Wind

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Powerslide » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:06 pm

Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:59 pm
Powerslide wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:42 pm
track design may help as we have seen..slower corners that arent too dependent on downforce followed up by a long straight.
This is not a good idea. We've got a bunch of tracks with slow corners leading onto very long straights with little impact. Canada hairpin, Russia final turn, entire red bull ring, barcelona final turn..
not quite just one turn.. say three corners short before straight...then prior to that another two or three mid speed corners and then prior to that a high speed sections and then a slow corner that ends that long straight

the idea is to get the car behind closer and closer if they are the quicker car..because with downforce being a major issue then corners that are not too high on downforce is the only solutuon that doesnt require any entertainment gimmick such as d.r.s

strad
256
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 pm

When they can lap Silverstone and some of the most iconic corners in F1 as if they are straights to me that shows that we have way too much downforce to depend on. 80% flat out?? There's something major wrong there.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Zynerji
42
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Zynerji » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:20 am

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 pm
When they can lap Silverstone and some of the most iconic corners in F1 as if they are straights to me that shows that we have way too much downforce to depend on. 80% flat out?? There's something major wrong there.
But great racing?

Just_a_fan
374
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 am

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 pm
When they can lap Silverstone and some of the most iconic corners in F1 as if they are straights to me that shows that we have way too much downforce to depend on. 80% flat out?? There's something major wrong there.
Did you see that drivers were looking at overtaking in to Copse? Overtaking attempts at 180mph is hardly a bad thing, is it? This isn't an oval track where such things are routine, but a bumpy track with corners and straights with varying requirements.

Tough crowd, I reckon...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

roon
311
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by roon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:11 am

The cars are faster than they were in previous years. There's something major wrong there. #-o :lol:

Damn engineers. Gonna have to ban them too eventually.

Some seem to forget F1 is more of an engineering and logistics competition than it is a driver's competition. Driver pay ~1%-10% the size of a team's operating budget. If one wants athlete centered competition one could watch boxing, football, or running. Cost of the engineered hardware relatively small (gloves, balls), and, hell, they're spec items even, so it's all right up a NASCARmunists' alley.

I wonder if the concept of spec horses ever comes up in horse racing. It is only fair to the jockeys, and would surely entail more saddle-to-saddle action. Horse breeding is expensive, complicate, boring to viewers, so ideally one breeder should just be hired to breed and re-breed the same gene-line for a few years. What could go wrong? Mane thing is, each jockey gets a fair shot wither or not they have a big, stable budget. Yea or neigh?

PlatinumZealot
326
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:27 pm

It is simple really, engineer cars that can pass each other. Fan boost was my proposal. Cars whose down force can be turned up when following another car.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

roon
311
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by roon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 pm

Formula Ford type cars might best represent what some are looking for. Negligible downforce, full grip available in corners regardless of vehicle proximity.



Just like F1's olden days, except way less awesome:


Manoah2u
317
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:18 pm

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 pm
When they can lap Silverstone and some of the most iconic corners in F1 as if they are straights to me that shows that we have way too much downforce to depend on. 80% flat out?? There's something major wrong there.
Image

yeah, you're right, take a look just how wrong f1 is today, 8G in corners, so boring:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

i think they should ban going full throttle through the corners, place some brake lights, sidemarkers, and make sure they brake sufficiently going into a corner. also make sure they use their directional lights so it's more fair for those behind to decide where they are going to overtake.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Brenton
11
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:28 am

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Brenton » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:49 pm

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 pm
When they can lap Silverstone and some of the most iconic corners in F1 as if they are straights to me that shows that we have way too much downforce to depend on. 80% flat out?? There's something major wrong there.
I don't completely disagree with your sentiment,
but what used to be iconic corners and tracks in F1 decades ago no longer existed by the 90s/00s. Spa is said to be a great iconic track but what about the original iconic Spa? The 14 km layout would be driven 95% flat out if ran today. Same with the 1960s Monza without the chicanes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Italian_Grand_Prix How about old Silverstone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_British_Grand_Prix Image Image

Just_a_fan
374
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:30 pm

Overtaking isn't the be-all and end-all of F1. Here's Senna and Mansell in '91 at Monza. Mansell followed Senna for lap after lap, had a number of attempts to pass, used Patrese as a runner to wear Senna's tyres and concentration and it still took him a while to overtake. Was it dull? Don't think so, no. Today, with DRS, Mansell would have been past in the first few laps and that would have been that.

See how close they can follow and still the overtake is difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ianVC8SvNEg
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

strad
256
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:21 am

I see that it proves what some of us have been saying... It's not the actual pass and certainly not a DRS aided one that counts nearly so much as the racing. As Just_a_fan said, with DRS we would never have seen that racing and for sure not with a modern front wing. :wink:
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

DiogoBrand
65
User avatar
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 6:02 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by DiogoBrand » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:52 am

strad wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:21 am
I see that it proves what some of us have been saying... It's not the actual pass and certainly not a DRS aided one that counts nearly so much as the racing. As Just_a_fan said, with DRS we would never have seen that racing and for sure not with a modern front wing. :wink:
I wonder how much the front wing complexity is responsible for making drivers unable to follow. Wings were much simpler in 2009 but cars were just as hard to follow. Even in 2008 they were simpler, but still it was hard to stay on the wake of another car.
No matter how simple you make the wings, there are two things about the current cars that will alwas make it impossible to follow:
1 - The amount of downforce: Doesn't matter if you need a million winglets or two very simple wings, with the shear amount of downforce that cars produce today it will always be difficult to follow.
2 - The drag of the cars: If you look at my OP, I posted this video:

If you pay attention you'll notice that it's not the upwash that make cars hard to follow, it's actually the air that's pulled by the car ahead. So instead of having static air, let's say at 250km/h relative to your car, the air is still moving at 30km/h, so relative to your car it's only at 220km/h, which makes a huge difference. You can work at reducing the upwash, but there will always be drag.


In conclusion: it doesn't matter how simple you make the wings, if the amount of downforce doesn't decrease, following closely will always be pretty much impossible.