Ferrari Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Sepehr87
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:45 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Sepehr87 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am

How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?

hurril
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by hurril » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:16 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:50 am
CriXus wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:26 pm
The diagram states the flow from MGU-H to MGU-K is unlimited (Rosberg calls it "energy for free"). I think what is going on is, that through better TC (better MGU-H) Ferrari are able to have those 120kw for more time throughout the lap. The energy from ES to MGU-K is limited (4MJ) per lap, but who says that Ferrari are not sending energy from MGU-H to MGU-K to engine.
No matter what is thrown at it and no matter the different interpretations, the "K" max deployment output to the crankshaft is gapped at a max of 16obhp for a max of 33.33 seconds per lap. what people seems to not understand is that any portion of the max deployment allowed at a corrisponding proportion of the max time allowed can be deployed all along the whole lap if the system is so capable. the unlimitted output of the "H" after satisfying the allowed output of the "K" can be diverted to "ES".
This is not correct and this has been explained to you about 400 times.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:03 pm

hurril wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:16 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:50 am
CriXus wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:26 pm
The diagram states the flow from MGU-H to MGU-K is unlimited (Rosberg calls it "energy for free"). I think what is going on is, that through better TC (better MGU-H) Ferrari are able to have those 120kw for more time throughout the lap. The energy from ES to MGU-K is limited (4MJ) per lap, but who says that Ferrari are not sending energy from MGU-H to MGU-K to engine.
No matter what is thrown at it and no matter the different interpretations, the "K" max deployment output to the crankshaft is gapped at a max of 16obhp for a max of 33.33 seconds per lap. what people seems to not understand is that any portion of the max deployment allowed at a corrisponding proportion of the max time allowed can be deployed all along the whole lap if the system is so capable. the unlimitted output of the "H" after satisfying the allowed output of the "K" can be diverted to "ES".
This is not correct and this has been explained to you about 400 times.
Repeatability being it 400 time or 4000 times doesn’t qualify it as it being correct.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:27 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm
roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 pm
I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...

This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd

And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e

From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
4MJ maximum per lap from ES to MGUK.

Unlimited MJ per lap from MGUH to MGUK.

MGUK delivery capped at 120kW/160hp at all times.

What he's implying is that their MGUK can deliver its max output of 120kW/160hp at all times during a lap. Implicit in the suggestion is that other teams can't sustain their MGUK in the same way, either using them less often or at a lower output.

Put more simply:

Ferrari: ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

His claims about the Ferrari unit operating at a 'higher pressure' could indicate greater mass flow through the engine, implying Ferrari are able to run higher air-fuel ratios and more efficiently operate their compressor and turbine. That's how you could get beyond 4 MJ per lap delivered to the K.

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

Making more ICE power seems like it would go hand in hand with designing a bigger H capable of sustaining the K full time. As ICE output increases, max K run time increases. That could be the current development situation and could explain Ferrari's lead. Beyond this HP gains will be from the ICE only. Which might explain the interest in dropping the H in 2020. All the knowledge gained since 2014 will allow continued DI turbo ICE efficiency development, without the complexity, cost, and weight of compounding. Because there was going to be a point where ICE gains were going to surpass the development potential of the as-regulated electrical turbo-compounding.

P.S. I can't vouch for the truthfulness of the statements made in the video.
https://postimg.cc/image/yiwvylfdd/

If I`m not wrong, from the above diagram, my understanding is that 4MJ is the max. amount of energy that could be deployed per lap just from ES through MGU-K to the drivetrain. But what is more important is to notice is the energy coming from MGU-H to MGU-K which is unlimited ...

So I could see 3 scenarios:

Ferrari : ICE output + >160hp (33sec. just 160HP)
Mercedes : ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

And is worth to mention that those above figures are PU max. outputs that could be used only for that special Q3 mode or special moments like overtaking or restarts ...
"special Q3 MODE/PARTY MODE/FREE LOAD MODE" both "H" and "K" will be sharing "ES" power, the "H" will be spinning the turbo "electric supercharging mode", with waste gates open, the "ICE" at maximum fueling permitted. in this "FREE LOAD" mode the maximum possible power output is extracted.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:43 pm

The word doing the rounds at Silverstone paddock was that the recent increase in power of the O62-2 engine is coming from fuel formulation from Shell. the other word was that red bull is unhappy with the lack of fuel updates from Mobil and that Renault and McLaren who uses Castrol (BP) fuel actually get more power out of their engines than red bull. A note, red bull using Mobil instead of what Renault officially uses, red bull have to pay extra dyno tuning to Renault for dyno tune their engines on the fuel of their chose.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am

Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.

wuzak
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:49 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am
Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
The only limit between the MGUK and the engine is the power limit of 120kW.

Tom145145
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Tom145145 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:31 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am
Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.

rscsr
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Location: Austria

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by rscsr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:03 am

Tom145145 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:31 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am
Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.
The MGU-K is limited to 200Nm (referenced to the engine speed) according to article 5.2.3.

Tom145145
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Tom145145 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:40 am

rscsr wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:03 am
Tom145145 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:31 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am
Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.
The MGU-K is limited to 200Nm (referenced to the engine speed) according to article 5.2.3.
Sorry, to be clear I was referring to the idea of a 4MJ or 33.33 second out put limit on the K. Which in my opinion has come about purely from trying to equate the old KERs technology with the new hybrid technology.
It strikes me that if the FIA wanted to limit K output they would achieve this by limiting all K inputs.

aral
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Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:49 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by aral » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:45 am

There have been a number of personal disputes which have now been removed. Please discuss the topic properly and without comments about others. If you disagree with a technical comment then debate it, by all means. But do not attack the writer.
Stay on topic!

turbof1
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:48 am

Tom145145 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:40 am
rscsr wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:03 am
Tom145145 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:31 am


Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.
The MGU-K is limited to 200Nm (referenced to the engine speed) according to article 5.2.3.
Sorry, to be clear I was referring to the idea of a 4MJ or 33.33 second out put limit on the K. Which in my opinion has come about purely from trying to equate the old KERs technology with the new hybrid technology.
It strikes me that if the FIA wanted to limit K output they would achieve this by limiting all K inputs.
That's stated in the appendix flow chart. Yes that flow chart acts as regulation.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:27 am

"Understanding ERS duty cycle" This understanding must be done in accordance with what the rules allows and not with what ones interpretations of what the rules allows.
Spielberg is a track were harvesting by the MGU-K is more difficult to do than to deploy.

Andy Cowell "In Spielberg, the drivers need to harvest at every opportunity, but they're deploying it just as regularly, with 33.33 seconds of boost to be used in 68 seconds lap, they can take advantage of that extra power for almost 50% of the lap, if they get it right".

What holds them back with more straights then braking points to let their MGU-H UNLIMITTED FLOW TO MGU-K being used to deploy through the "K" A CONSTANT I60 BHP to the crankshaft for longer than the 33.33 seconds per lap the rules mandate?.

Sevach
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Sevach » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:12 pm

Only the MGUK can send power to the wheels.

The battery/ES can send 4 MJ per lap to the MGUK, at a rate of 160 hp this amounts to 33s, at a rate of 80 hp this amounts to 66s, the limit is in megajoules not seconds of battery, there's a lot of felxibility in how you use your 4 MJ. The "33s limit" is something that journalists/broadcasters use to make it simpler for the average guy.

The MGUH can send power both to the battery/ES or the MGUK (and then MGUK to the wheels), so if a team has a MGUH capable of harvesting 80 hp constantly they can send these 80 hp to the MGUK and combined with 80 hp from the battery/ES get 160 hp(you can't go over the 160 peak eletric output no matter what your sources) for 66s/lap.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:20 pm

Andy Cowell has never said eg that their PUs are 50% efficient .....
but many believe that he has said this and therefore that 50% bte is an actuality

can't we tell from those blinking lights whether max K motoring is exceeding 33.3 sec per lap ??
there must be a rule on threshold value of PU torque decrease to trigger the lights ?