Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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They need to measure out of ES to make sure it will not have fluctuations >4MJ and they need another at the MGU-K to make sure it is not getting more energy than 120kW at any point in time. That would be my guess.

My understanding is that if your battery is 12MJ you can never drop bellow 8MJ so if you send 4MJ to the K and you also want to send some extra to the H that extra has to be harvested somewhere

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 15:07
They need to measure out of ES to make sure it will not have fluctuations >4MJ and they need another at the MGU-K to make sure it is not getting more energy than 120kW at any point in time. That would be my guess.

My understanding is that if your battery is 12MJ you can never drop bellow 8MJ so if you send 4MJ to the K and you also want to send some extra to the H that extra has to be harvested somewhere
If you have 12MJ physical battery capacity it can and does drop below 8 especially on consecutive laps if they can't harvest more than 4MJ each lap. Say for a 4 lap stint if only 3MJ are coming in but 4 are going out per lap, you will have 4MJ left in the battery, regardless of your per lap state of charge. So like Verstappen when he was defending from Raikkonen in Silverstone, you can run out of battery and need to charge it, if you're using aggressive deployment strategies.
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sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 15:02
SOC as a 4MJ window any time the car is on track needs context. That 4MJ window resets itself every time the car crosses the timing light, it doesn't matter if you depoloy .01MJ or 4MJ to the MGU-K per lap.
IMO this part is wrong.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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sosic2121 wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 16:04
godlameroso wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 15:02
SOC as a 4MJ window any time the car is on track needs context. That 4MJ window resets itself every time the car crosses the timing light, it doesn't matter if you depoloy .01MJ or 4MJ to the MGU-K per lap.
IMO this part is wrong.
I see it that way too. It doesn't reset it's fixed for the race. If it maximum state of charge at any point is "X" MJ then its minimum at any point of the session has to be "X"-4 MJ

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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As you can see on the left side of the image it only says that max and min SOC must be separated by a maximum of 4MJ for all times it is on the track. It does not say it is per lap

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 16:57
As you can see on the left side of the image it only says that max and min SOC must be separated by a maximum of 4MJ for all times it is on the track. It does not say it is per lap
The arrow pointing at the MGU-K says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K", but you can deploy more than 4MJ/lap to the MGU-K provided it's not coming from the ES. And you can harvest more than 2MJ as long as it's not going from the K directly to the ES. On this much we agree, the only thing we disagree is if the limit is on a per lap basis, I think that it's a virtual limit which gets reset on a per lap basis every time the car crosses the timing light, and is not the actual battery state of charge.

https://youtu.be/LxRvrkXIZcY

Let me ask you a question, the horizontal bar at the bottom of Vettel's steering wheel, is that the per lap SOC or the actual ES SOC?
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 15:02
henry wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 13:38
godlameroso wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 13:06


The state of charge would still be 4MJ/lap if none was deployed to the MGU-K. If you deploy 4MJ to the turbo in one lap, your SOC is still 4MJ for that lap as none was sent to the K. Only energy sent to the K from the ES counts against the 4MJ/lap SOC at least the way I see it.
State of charge is a quantity, it’s units are MJ. 4MJ/lap is a discharge rate. There is no restriction on the discharge rate of the ES.

The SOC restriction is not per lap but “any time the car is on the track”. So using your way of seeing it and using the restriction 4MJ/“time on track” the ES would be emptied after the first 4MJ was sent to the MGU-K and that would be it.

It is unfortunate that they picked the same number for the SOC and MGU-K transfer rate. Suppose they had chosen 5MJ for the SOC limit it would, I think, make things more obvious since we could see that the ES could service both the H and K.
In the latest regulations in the energy flow chart it states "one electrical sensor is connected to measure all electrical energy into and out of the MGU-K."

It also states "one electrical sensor is connected to measure all electrical energy into and out of the energy store"

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

Why would they need to do this if SOC is simply based on any energy being deployed by the ES? Wouldn't they just measure that instead of specifically measuring MGU-K electrical energy?

SOC as a 4MJ window any time the car is on track needs context. That 4MJ window resets itself every time the car crosses the timing light, it doesn't matter if you depoloy .01MJ or 4MJ to the MGU-K per lap. Other than the crankshaft, the MGU-K is the only device that can send power to the wheels. Just like the old V8 KERS rule where you could only deploy for 6 seconds per lap regardless of the battery's physical charge. The same applies here, only deployment to the MGU-K(the electrical device propelling the car) counts against your 4MJ/lap pool.

I can't for the life of me figure out how you assume I think the car would run out of energy after using 4MJ any time the car is on track. I obviously know that the MGU-K and MGU-H harvest energy to replenish the ES.

If 4MJ is sent to the MGU-K in one lap, you cannot send any more energy to the MGU-K directly via the ES for that lap, you have drained your alloted state of charge for that one lap. As soon as you cross the timing light you have another 4MJ, this is regardless of the physical state of charge of the battery. The two are separate.

I guess it's a Monday thing.
If you’re going to interpret “at any time the car is on the track” as “once per lap” then I guess there is no point in us discussing this further.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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I'm not interpreting anything it says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" How else can I interpret this along with 4MJ state of charge any time the car is on track and the unlimited arrows going everywhere else? Are you saying that ES sending energy to the turbo counts against this 4MJ? I don't think it does, nowhere does it say it does. I'm not even arguing I'm just trying to see where exactly we disagree because I honestly think it's just a misunderstanding.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 18:37
I'm not interpreting anything it says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" How else can I interpret this along with 4MJ state of charge any time the car is on track and the unlimited arrows going everywhere else? Are you saying that ES sending energy to the turbo counts against this 4MJ? I don't think it does, nowhere does it say it does. I'm not even arguing I'm just trying to see where exactly we disagree because I honestly think it's just a misunderstanding.
It definitely does say “Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K”.

But the phrase “4MJ any time the car is on the track” means that if you if you have 4MJ SOC in the ES and send 1MJ to the turbo and 3MJ to the MGU-K without charging in between then that’s it. Until you have increased the SOC you can’t send anything anywhere. That’s what SOC means, it’s a quantity of charge in a bucket and if you empty the bucket then there’s nothing left. And if you do empty it you can only put 4MJ in. Your earlier example of using extra charge on subsequent laps and going below the low water mark is against the rules.

It’s a constraint that stops the teams saving up huge quantities of charge and using, for example in the way you proposed.

So that’s where we disagree. Sending energy to the MGU-H comes from the quantity of charge in the ES. This doesn’t mean that 4MJ/lap cannot be sent to the MGU-K because once some charge has been emptied from the ES it can be replenished, but only up to 4MJ Mark.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Two separate and interconnected power producing engines. An ICE and an MGU-K. the ICE is unlimited in its output, the MGU-K is gapped at 161 bhp for 33.33 seconds per lap. One electrical sensor to measure all electrical energy into and out of the MGU-K. One electrical sensor to measure all electrical energy into and out of the energy store. Even if a car has deployed zero electrical energy over a lap once across the line the 4mj energy deployment allowed will be reset to zero.
Verstappen complaining of lack of deployment when defending was due to him having used all the allowed 4mj electrical power deployment over the lap by the MGU-K, HIS NO LIMIT ON DEPLOYMENT MGUH THROUGH THE “K” WAS OF NO USE because the max through the “K” deployment allowed was exceeded. That or Renault/red bull doesn’t know that according to some on here 6-8-9-and even 10 mj per lap deployment by the “K” is possible, as is possible charging ES other than under braking by the "K".

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 18:37
I'm not interpreting anything it says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" How else can I interpret this along with 4MJ state of charge any time the car is on track and the unlimited arrows going everywhere else? Are you saying that ES sending energy to the turbo counts against this 4MJ? I don't think it does, nowhere does it say it does. I'm not even arguing I'm just trying to see where exactly we disagree because I honestly think it's just a misunderstanding.
Yes the "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" is obviusly per lap. I agree. Also you can send more directly from H to K. You can also send more energy to the H not counting the "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K". So far so good.

But apart from all that there is another rule that says that during the whole session the b82rez can't ha ve a flutuation from max to min state of charge of more than 4MJ.

The reasons for this are IMO two.

1) If it said that the maximum ES capacity to be 4MJ it would just suck ass cause it would die with so many full charge/discharge cycles. So obviously it needs more capacity.

2) Because as stated in 1) it needs more capacity but the FIA also wanted to create a limit so they created that rule so effectively it's like all cars have a 4MJ ES for all purposes.


If it was like you think it is it would create a huge arms race to have the most capacitated ES possible. Imagine starting the race with 300MJ (I know it's impossible but it's just for the argument sake) you could deploy the maximum alowed MGU-K for the whole race without harvasting by just sending 4MJ per lap and having the value reset for the next lap. This is obviusly not the case. If it would be that way believe me we would be getting news every week that "team X just improved its ES and can now start the race with extra x MJ of juice."

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Oh they do, it's just a slow process. Energy density is the holy grail of batteries, the faster this improves the sooner we can relegate the ICE to a museum.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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saviour stivala wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 20:24
Two separate and interconnected power producing engines. An ICE and an MGU-K. the ICE is unlimited in its output, the MGU-K is gapped at 161 bhp for 33.33 seconds per lap. One electrical sensor to measure all electrical energy into and out of the MGU-K. One electrical sensor to measure all electrical energy into and out of the energy store. Even if a car has deployed zero electrical energy over a lap once across the line the 4mj energy deployment allowed will be reset to zero.
Verstappen complaining of lack of deployment when defending was due to him having used all the allowed 4mj electrical power deployment over the lap by the MGU-K, HIS NO LIMIT ON DEPLOYMENT MGUH THROUGH THE “K” WAS OF NO USE because the max through the “K” deployment allowed was exceeded. That or Renault/red bull doesn’t know that according to some on here 6-8-9-and even 10 mj per lap deployment by the “K” is possible, as is possible charging ES other than under braking by the "K".
Is the bolded part a statement from Red Bull? Or is it your interpretation of what happened?

It is quite possible that Verstappen had deployed 6 or 7 MJ before he ran out, in contrast Raikkonen many have been able to deploy more and so have an advantage.

If the Renault MGU-H makes 60KW at full power then the MGU-K can run at 120kW for 66 seconds. This requires the ES to deliver 4MJ and the MGU-H the same, for a total of 8MJ.

However to do this every lap the ES must get 4MJ charge each lap. At Silverstone on a 95 second lap braking only lasts about 6 seconds and supplies 0.7 MJ. They spend about about 10 seconds on part throttle where they might motor against the MGU-K and harvest a further 1.2 MJ. If after 66 seconds they switch to harvesting from the MGU-H that’s another 10 seconds at 60kW, 0.6 MJ. so in total they might harvest 3.5MJ. That’s not enough. They can now only run the MGU-K at 120kW for 58 seconds. At this point having used 7MJ Verstappen would complain of a lack of deployment.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Verstappen's MGU-H with its unlimited flow to the MGU-K was of no use/of no help after he had deployed all he was allowed to deploy through the MGU-K for the lap. And neither was the possible harvesting through the MGU-K other than when braking. simply put, he had used the permitted deployment for the lap. after that when he crossed the line his permitted deployment of 4mj was reset to zero and he was than able to start deploying again.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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saviour stivala wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 23:32
Verstappen's MGU-H with its unlimited flow to the MGU-K was of no use/of no help after he had deployed all he was allowed to deploy through the MGU-K for the lap. And neither was the possible harvesting through the MGU-K other than when braking. simply put, he had used the permitted deployment for the lap. after that when he crossed the line his permitted deployment of 4mj was reset to zero and he was than able to start deploying again.
Do you think all the PU’s are the same in this respect? In that they can only deploy 4MJ and recover only from braking how come Ferrari and Mercedes are better? Surely Raikkonen also got to 4MJ and had to wait to be reset for the next lap? Or are Ferrari’s joules bigger than Renaultks.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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