Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Big Mangalhit]

Oh they do, it's just a slow process. Energy density is the holy grail of batteries, the faster this improves the sooner we can relegate the ICE to a museum.

This will go nowhere if you continue to read "The difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track" as "The difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ per lap".

I guess we both made our points and we are not going to change our minds. I'm out of this one

[Muniix]

Oh they do, it's just a slow process. Energy density is the holy grail of batteries, the faster this improves the sooner we can relegate the ICE to a museum.

Energy density in Li-ion has really only maintained it's 2-3% year improvement by reducing packaging overhead.
Especially high power density variation. The 4000kw electric drag car being developed in Perth, Australia imported special high power density batteries that are cooled liquid nitrogen.
I'd also suggest that the 4MJ SOC variance is over the cells lowest internal resistance typically between 40-60% actual SOC of 10MJ. All cells being high power density as possible, size and mass permitting. I'd say they're using experimental anode and cathode. Graphene super capacitors unlikely when current energy density per litre volume so low.

[Muniix]

They need to measure out of ES to make sure it will not have fluctuations >4MJ and they need another at the MGU-K to make sure it is not getting more energy than 120kW at any point in time. That would be my guess.

My understanding is that if your battery is 12MJ you can never drop bellow 8MJ so if you send 4MJ to the K and you also want to send some extra to the H that extra has to be harvested somewhere

If you have 12MJ physical battery capacity it can and does drop below 8 especially on consecutive laps if they can't harvest more than 4MJ each lap. Say for a 4 lap stint if only 3MJ are coming in but 4 are going out per lap, you will have 4MJ left in the battery, regardless of your per lap state of charge. So like Verstappen when he was defending from Raikkonen in Silverstone, you can run out of battery and need to charge it, if you're using aggressive deployment strategies.

The two rules are mutually inclusive, you can't brake one rule because your not braking another. Max SOC variance while on track 4MJ, and up to 4MJ to MGU-k per lap. You can't exclude a rule.

[Muniix]

Fuel chemical kinetics in the low-t range in the major reaction of O2 + H -> OH + O where the O is a dia-radical, with two unpaired electrons, producing three more radicals each branch chaining off a H in the pre heat fuel zone. Triggered following a temperature and pressure profile and gives a rapid rate of combustion only stopping when all fuel is consumed. Normally only two radicals are produced for the normal explosive rate of combustion it's now turned up even faster.

[godlameroso]

Fuel chemical kinetics in the low-t range in the major reaction of O2 + H -> OH + O where the O is a dia-radical, with two unpaired electrons, producing three more radicals each branch chaining off a H in the pre heat fuel zone. Triggered following a temperature and pressure profile and gives a rapid rate of combustion only stopping when all fuel is consumed. Normally only two radicals are produced for the normal explosive rate of combustion it's now turned up even faster.

I always felt the fuel kinetics is the most important part of the combustion process, too bad thermodynamically omega is treated as a function that assumes chemistry happens, and doesn't go more in-depth.

[saviour stivala]

Verstappen's MGU-H with its unlimited flow to the MGU-K was of no use/of no help after he had deployed all he was allowed to deploy through the MGU-K for the lap. And neither was the possible harvesting through the MGU-K other than when braking. simply put, he had used the permitted deployment for the lap. after that when he crossed the line his permitted deployment of 4mj was reset to zero and he was than able to start deploying again.

Do you think all the PU’s are the same in this respect? In that they can only deploy 4MJ and recover only from braking how come Ferrari and Mercedes are better? Surely Raikkonen also got to 4MJ and had to wait to be reset for the next lap? Or are Ferrari’s joules bigger than Renaultks.

What I think is that a Honda PU is certainly not a Renault, Mercedes or a FERRARI PU, ditto for the other three. But in the respect of deploying electrical energy and harvesting it, all four are bound by the same fixed rules numbers as to what they can deploy and harvest. The deployment and harvesting rules as I understand and interpret them I spelled them out on here “As defined in the terminology of the federation international de l’automoble. A F1 ERS is “designed” to recover energy from the car during braking (kinetic) only unlike road going hybrids such as the Honda CR-Z, and from exhaust (heat), store that energy and make it available to propel the car solely by means of the MGU-K electric engine at a maximum energy deployment of 161 bhp per lap for a time of 33.33 seconds per lap. Having came here and expressed those interpretations of the F1 ERS rules, the negativity I received was unbelievable, akin to having trespassed into privet property.
Re Verstappen having ran out of electric energy deployment allowed when he was defending, there was nothing wrong with his ERS components, “ES-MGU-K and MGU-H”. The MGU-K had deployed all it was allowed to deploy during that lap, so the size capacity of the ES, the MGU-K allowable harvesting under braking and the MGU-H permitted unlimited flow both to ES and k was of no use or help to him until he crossed the line and his permitted 4mj per lap was reset back to zero.

[Tommy Cookers]

if you looked at the telemetry mentioned you would see K generation being driven by the ICE (early on exiting corners)
there is other telemetry showing this

you are ignoring the 'extra harvest' evidence and explanation that Honda has given to the world

the FIA rules do not use the word only (as in braking only) - this is your invention

[saviour stivala]

Sounds like Renault doesn't know about these K harvesting possibilities and the extra deployment also by the K possibilities because otherwise when Verstappen was defending he wouldn't have ran out of deployment. Hope that satisfies your learned insistence re F1 ERS deployment and harvesting.

[Tommy Cookers]

well we now seem to agree that the behaviours you said weren't allowed ..... are allowed

ok maybe RB (famous for minimising fuel fill to save weight) don't favour burning fuel for K generation
ok maybe Renault don't
ok maybe all the telemetry seen by the public has been Honda's - I don't remember

yes we don't seem to catch many examples of eg the duration of K motoring in a race lap or sequence of laps

[saviour stivala]

Or maybe Renault, the one in the back of Verstappen's car had deployed and harvested all that is actually allowed over a lap by the formula one ERS rules.

[saviour stivala]

well we now seem to agree that the behaviours you said weren't allowed ..... are allowed

ok maybe RB (famous for minimising fuel fill to save weight) don't favour burning fuel for K generation
ok maybe Renault don't
ok maybe all the telemetry seen by the public has been Honda's - I don't remember

yes we don't seem to catch many examples of eg the duration of K motoring in a race lap or sequence of laps

"well we now seem to agree the behaviours you (I) said werent allowed .....are allowed" Tommy. We agree not at all, far far from it.

[Muniix]

well we now seem to agree that the behaviours you said weren't allowed ..... are allowed

ok maybe RB (famous for minimising fuel fill to save weight) don't favour burning fuel for K generation
ok maybe Renault don't
ok maybe all the telemetry seen by the public has been Honda's - I don't remember

yes we don't seem to catch many examples of eg the duration of K motoring in a race lap or sequence of laps

Charging ES from MGU-k on corner exit and other opportunistic areas where the extra load results in operating the engine at maximum efficiency giving you effectively free energy from the higher efficiency minus losses obviously, traction control ditto excess energy going into ES maintaining high TE.
This reducing the total fuel required and fitting their low fuel use methodology.

[wuzak]

Harvesting coming out of corners must only be when the car is traction limited.

At Silverstone there aren't many places to harvest under braking or traction limited zones to harvest on acceleration.

Which suggests to me that the MGUH is the differentiator between Ferrari and Mercedes with their deployment, and Renault and Honda.

[Tommy Cookers]

K generation under power doesn't necessarily reduce the total fuel required
even if it improves 'theoretical' (ie ignoring track position) race-time performance
(and it doesn't need to reduce total fuel required to improve theoretical race-time)

RB may be minimising start weight (to get good early track position and defend it) regardless of other teams theoreticals

[godlameroso]

What costs more from a total energy budget? Running the compressor with a turbine, or through the electric motors? Probably depends on the circumstances, probably like it depends on whether you use the ICE or the ES to power those electric motors. Just like maybe the most efficient is a combination of all these different ways of harvesting and deploying energy.

P.S. I saw now where I was wrong about SOC, my bad.