Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
AJI
27
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by AJI » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:12 pm

digitalrurouni wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:39 pm
Can someone explain to me what the FIA were thinking of venting oil vapors in to the atmosphere?!?! I thought the whole purpose of these engines were to have a greener footprint :wtf:...
I don't think they were chasing 'green', more, efficiency. The emissions from the PU must be off the chart.

Dr. Acula
1
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:16 pm

digitalrurouni wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:39 pm
Can someone explain to me what the FIA were thinking of venting oil vapors in to the atmosphere?!?! I thought the whole purpose of these engines were to have a greener footprint :wtf:

And also why only Ferraris seem to emit that kind of vapor? Don't see a Mercedes or a Renault or a Honda doing that?
Racing engines are known to use quite a lot of oil anyway. Also they have no catalytic converter and with the very lean burn and relative high combustion temperatures they probably emit quite a lot of NOx.
The engines are designed to be very efficient, that doesn't mean they're environmentally friendly.

saviour stivala
-1
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:53 pm

dren wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:57 pm
dren wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:34 am


It probably depends on what kind of oil separation system the Ferrari uses for the vented gasses. They may not use one at all.
FERRARI like the other four uses a high spinning oil/air de-aerator- oil/air centrifuge - oil/air separator. and that is where the breather pipe vents from and not from the crankcase which is at a partial vacuum when the engine is running.
Where do the vented gasses come from before the separater?
From the scavange pumps.

PhillipM
177
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PhillipM » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:43 pm

...which draw it from the crankcase.

saviour stivala
-1
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:39 pm

While the dry sump engine lubrication system was used and being around for a great many years, with some model designs not being possible without such a lubrication system (aero radials and inverted). It was around 1963 that Porsche produced a production road going car with a dry sump lubrication system. At around the advent of the F1 NA 3L V10 the dry sump lubrication system was taken to the next development step, that of the scavenging enabling the crankshaft to rotate in a partial vacuum. This was achieved by first compartmentalising the crankcase into a separate V twin cylinder configuration by using the lower crankcase itself as main bearing caps, and secondly by using scavenge pumps as oil/air pumps, scavenging was so comprehensive that no excess oil was allowed anywhere in the engine to absorb precious power, a high speed spinning oil de- aerator centrifugally separating the large volume of air from the oil, drawn from the 5 individual V-twin cylinder crankcase, started to be used. The FERRARI NA 3L V10 used (11) eleven Eaton type scavenge pumps all running on a common shaft inside a tunnel on the right side of the lower crankcase, with (2) two pairs side by side scavenging each of the (5) five compartmentalised V twin cylinders, with the eleventh pump scavenging both cylinder heads camshafts compartments, which again had the valve covers forming part (one half) of the camshaft bearings. At that time, over (20) twenty years ago, FERRARI was claiming refining such scavenging system and in collaboration with SHELL oil development they gained upper of 30hp. Just imagine how refined such developments has been 20 years later.

saviour stivala
-1
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:45 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:43 pm
...which draw it from the crankcase.
which means that no crankcase breather pipe/vent pipe is possible to be fixed to the crankcase in such a design where the crankcase is ran in a partial vacum.

Muniix
13
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Muniix » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:21 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:05 am
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:40 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:00 am
Lets clear things. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. The max power the MGU-K can generate is limited to 120kw.
2. The max power the MGU-K can receive from the ES is 120kw.

3. The max power the MGU-H can generate is unlimited.
4. The max power the MGU-K can receive from the MGU-H is unlimited.

5. Only mechanical connections to the MGU-H are limited.

Items 3, 4, 5 create a possible loophole by which the MGU-H can be driven (say by an alternator) and in turn power the MGU-K - bypassing parts of the drive train and gaining power through higher efficiencies and (possibly) reduced weight, as well as gaining the ability to deploy for much longer (the whole lap if necessary, eg during quali).
4 is incorrect, the amount of energy transferred from H to K is unlimited. No matter what, the K can only generate or consume 120kw of power. The key here is the difference between energy and power.
Thanks for the correction of #4.

For the energy, it can be delivered in unlimited amounts as a potential (using, say an ultracapacitor), and then discharged at 120kw continuously for as long as the charge lasts.

There is plenty of storage for electric charge:
4kj max in the ES;
5kj max in the MGU Control Unit;
300kj max in non-ERS or 20kj max in non-ERS is drawn at more than 2kw.
Current super capacitors have very low energy density, only now can we achieve over 50 watt hours a litre, they may have little mass they have large volume, may be on flexible polymer you still need conductors.

Packaging is a challeng.

Second, their voltage reduces with State of charge another issue so you need many banks you can switch in various configurations, whereas Li-ion cells voltage changes with State of charge and load these two different behaviours requires two power electronics.
Last edited by Muniix on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Oehrly
1
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:53 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Oehrly » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 pm

Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:04 pm

Well, all of this is true, but "cooling of intake air" is basically the cause for the rest of it. And there is a article in the rules which defines the lowest aloud intake air temperature.
5.6.8 Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. [...]
OK, I don't really know how that combustion process works in detail and what affects in which way. But if it all comes down to cooling the intake air, it seems there is not much point in doing it with that rule.
Though if I remember correctly that rule is quite new so maybe it was a thing.

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:25 am

Water injection uses a lot of water and for best effect alcohol is added for evaporation cooling. It would help a lot with detonation. Even with TJI the teams have detonation issues because of extreme cylinder pressures.
For f1 regs the alcohol would be omitted as it can be seen as extra fuel.
Do you know if the rules would allow water injection? "Cooling the compressor blades" might be a good excuse to use it. A "leaking inter-cooler" would be too crude to work effectively.
I had in mind that it is stated somewhere that nothing but fuel and air (~and oil) may enter the cylinder though I couln't find it in the rules when I was looking for it. It has to be stated somewhere or else Teams would probably try to inject coolant fluid with additives as a sort of qualifying boost.
I have no idea how much water is required, couldn't find anything when briefly looking. High water usage basically makes the idea useless then.
A leaking inter-cooler was also what came to my mind.

So I think we agree on not possible. I sort of expected that cause else it would probably have come up already.

saviour stivala
-1
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:22 am

PhillipM wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:43 pm
...which draw it from the crankcase.
Yes, from the crankcase which when the engine is running is in a partial vacuum, are you also one that believe there is a breather pipe attached to that crankcase that vents from that crankcase?

digitalrurouni
11
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by digitalrurouni » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:31 pm

Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:16 pm
digitalrurouni wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:39 pm
Can someone explain to me what the FIA were thinking of venting oil vapors in to the atmosphere?!?! I thought the whole purpose of these engines were to have a greener footprint :wtf:

And also why only Ferraris seem to emit that kind of vapor? Don't see a Mercedes or a Renault or a Honda doing that?
Racing engines are known to use quite a lot of oil anyway. Also they have no catalytic converter and with the very lean burn and relative high combustion temperatures they probably emit quite a lot of NOx.
The engines are designed to be very efficient, that doesn't mean they're environmentally friendly.
Thanks I guess I associated more efficient engines to less emissions!

Muniix
13
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Muniix » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:50 am

roon wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:40 pm
That might be a path toward simulating dual injectors. Port and DI. Since the piston is only aligned with the side mounted injector for a split second, one injector could be used to fill both the cylinder and a pre-chamber. The cylinder filled BTDC, the pre-chamber filled at, or near, TDC.
Think the wetting would be a problem effecting the volume actually entering the prechamber, they run a air pump scavenging the prechamber, a seventh cylinder kind of.

Accurate volume of fuel entering prechamber may or may not be a big issue. Wetting would be.

saviour stivala
-1
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:51 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:22 am
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:30 am
Clearly the advantage is thermal - aluminium softens at fairly low temperatures and they want to operate with a hotter piston crown.

Peak combustion temperatures and pressures are very high in these engines and one path to higher TE (power) is higher pressure and temperature hence the search for increased temperature tolerance at the piston crown. Steel is great but its strength/mass ratio works against it - especially in thin sections under pressure loading like the piston crown. Honeycombed steel allows the crown to be thicker (resisting bending) without the extra weight.

If they can make a steel piston with the same mass and strength as an aluminium piston there will be a huge advantage in temperature tolerance.
I am reviving the steel piston topic.

There has been new developments in 3D printing as of late. Nano Particles are added to the metal powder to stabilize the grain boundaries and prevent hot cracking... Now previously unwledable metals are weldable (in additive manufacturing).

https://m.phys.org/news/2017-09-d-high- ... lding.html
The pistons must be made from aluminium alloy.

hollus
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hollus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:53 pm

Indeed the rules seem to mention aluminum alloys only for the pistons. But what does it mean? What is the definition of an alloy in this context? That are the allowed alloyed components?

How much iron is allowed in an "aluminum alloy"? Just thinking loud here, maybe I am way off base.

There is a 300g minimum weight per piston (with piston-pin, piston-pin retainers and piston rings). That would be the limiting factor, surely?


Edit: For clarity: This
The crankcase and cylinder block of the engine must be made of cast or wrought aluminium alloys - the use of composite materials is not allowed. The crankshaft and camshafts must be made from an iron-based alloy, pistons from an aluminium alloy and valves from alloys based on iron, nickel, cobalt or titanium.
is stated, wrongly, here: https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... d_ERS.html
On second thoughts, this is not present in the 2017 technical regs. Was this present in former rulesets???

So indeed, there is NOTHING in the current regs (that I can find) that forbids steel nor mandates aluminum. Sorry!

This is what is in the current regs:
5.16 Materials and construction – General :
5.16.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific application, the following materials may not be used
anywhere on the power unit :
a) Magnesium based alloys.
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s).
c) Intermetallic materials.
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium.
e) Copper based alloys containing more than 2.75% Beryllium.
f) Any other alloy class containing more than 0.25% Beryllium.
g) Tungsten base alloys.
h) Ceramics and ceramic matrix composites.
5.16.2 The restrictions in Article 5.16.1 do not apply to coatings provided the total coating thickness
does not exceed 25% of the section thickness of the underlying base material in all axes. In all
cases, other than under Article 5.16.3(b), the relevant coating must not exceed 0.8mm.
Where the coating is based on Gold, Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium, the coating
thickness must not exceed 0.035mm.
5.16.3 The restrictions in Article 5.16.1(h) do not apply to the following applications :
a) Any component whose primary purpose is for electrical or thermal insulation.
b) Any coating whose primary purpose is for thermal insulation of the outside of the
exhaust system.
5.16.4 Magnesium based alloys, where permitted, must be available on a non-exclusive basis and
under normal commercial terms to all competitors. Only those alloys covered by ISO16220 or
ISO3116 and approved by the FIA may be used.
5.17 Materials and construction – Components :
5.17.1 Pistons must respect Article 5.16. Titanium alloys are not permitted.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. TANSTAAFL!

PlatinumZealot
313
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:07 pm

There is nothing there stating steel cannot be used.
Titanium pistons should be fun!

roon
289
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:09 pm

Juzh wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:58 pm
roon wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:41 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:58 am

Ferrari powered teams don't have exhaust mics it seems, all you can hear is engine and ers winding noises.
I'm not aware of a standard location for the microphones. My guess is that Ferrari has theirs mounted near the gearbox, other teams having theirs mounted near the radiators. Engine exhaust, turbocharger, and gearbox noise dominate the sounds we hear. Why would the electric motors, their controllers, and/or the ES be audible over these high-dB sources?
Since 2018 all cars are equipped with 2 onboard microphones, one in the regular old school position and one near the exhaust. Those 2 audio feeds are then broadcast sepparately to the left and right channel. They did this in order to improve the onboard sound and to allow easier differentiation between cars/engines.

ERS winding noises are very obvious on the ferrari, much more so than on other cars, i guess they positioned the second mic not near exhaust, but rather somewhere else in the car.
Winding in what sense? How would the electrical components be heard over gears, exhaust, turbcharger? Regardless of mic position.