Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:54 pm

maguetox wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:10 pm
etusch wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:36 pm
HPD wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:49 pm
When we think about the engine from point of chassis which it installed by now, it is hard to believe but after we see it with redbull chassis may be we can believe that.
Those 30hp must be peak hp, no constant hp during the whole race,there is where Honda looks to be a little behind and on par or just above the Renault.
I believe I have seen comments from Honda that suggest that when they increase ICE, direct crank, power they lose MGU-H power. This would give the situation where their peak power is close, just adding 120kW from the MGU-K, but their sustained power is lower. This happens both because the MGU-H proportion of the 120kW is lower and so the 4MJ lasts less time, and because the MGU-H is less effective in charging the ES to provide the 4MJ in the first place.

The balance between crank power and H power is important. It may be that this is the most significant difference between the power units.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.

Sasha
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sasha » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:52 pm

dren wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:43 am
I remember the Honeywell compressor posted here a while back. Too bad the regulations limit it to a one stage compressor.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre plane. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.
I was told from a very good source that the 2016 Honda PU Compressor was 30 cm long but narrow.They stated it had very complex blade shapes.So that lead to the thought of it starting out as axial then turning into Radial at exit(one stage).
It is on one shaft.

McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by McMika98 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Lol. Thats clutching straws.

So a dutch website claiming BBCrap Benson sources. The guy himself hasnt posted or claimed this on any of his platform. Besides how much does he know, he does not have Honda or Toro Rosso insiders. His Mclaren insiders are prolly out already. The guy isnt switched on the technical side. Please dont lower yourself with form of Journalism that Trump remarks about.

Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Snorked » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:20 pm

anthonyfa18 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:25 pm
it look like we will only see the new spec 3 Honda Pu in USA at Austin Texas, with spa, Monza and the Home of Honda Suzuka all power hungry track.
Franz Tost says "In Canada we had an improvement that gave us three tenths. We will have another in America and in 2019 there will be more. I am convinced that the power unit will be very competitive," he added.
http://www.f1i.com/news/313386-red-bull ... -tost.html
Disappointing.

Didn't he mention upgrades to the battery pack, MGU H and MGU K for SPA or Monza time some months ago? I also remember him saying Honda had also started work on the next step of the ICE, so hopefully this US upgrade is only to the ICE like Canada and the hybrid will see some improvements upon the return in a few weeks.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:07 pm

Sasha wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:52 pm
dren wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:43 am
I remember the Honeywell compressor posted here a while back. Too bad the regulations limit it to a one stage compressor.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre plane. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.
I was told from a very good source that the 2016 Honda PU Compressor was 30 cm long but narrow.They stated it had very complex blade shapes.So that lead to the thought of it starting out as axial then turning into Radial at exit(one stage).
It is on one shaft.
Sounds like an elongated screw but axial flow.
Honda!

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:03 am

Axial was an odd choice simply because you can't have an axial outlet. The connecting shaft prevents this. Even at it's most basic implementation it was a compromised idea. The compressor outlet needed to do a 180* bend with a turboshaft running through it. Restrictive. Makes no sense. Then there was the space, size, and speed issue on top of that. Why did they do this. Big company, millions of dollars, amateur mistakes?

dren wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:07 pm
Sounds like an elongated screw but axial flow.
I've seen pictures of wartime/pre-war turbines or compressors that looked like worm gears, but I can't find any. Here are a couple single-'stage,' single-screw hydraulic screw pumps:

Image

Image

Would a scroll compressor could meet the letter of the rules? While matching speed with the turbine.

Eccentric mud motors come to mind. A pneumatic version would probably be inefficient, hard to balance, prone to failure. Right at home on the RA15H, then.

Image

Image

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:25 am

The later looks like fun to balance at speed.
Honda!

Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:15 pm

Image

A 'G ladder' adaption?
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Craigy » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:23 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:25 am
The latter looks like fun to balance at speed.
125,000rpm. Mmhmm.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:26 am

HPD wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:49 pm
Andrew Benson ....
I stopped reading right there! :roll:

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:30 am

roon wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:03 am
Axial was an odd choice simply because you can't have an axial outlet. The connecting shaft prevents this. Even at it's most basic implementation it was a compromised idea. The compressor outlet needed to do a 180* bend with a turboshaft running through it. Restrictive. Makes no sense. Then there was the space, size, and speed issue on top of that. Why did they do this. Big company, millions of dollars, amateur mistakes?

dren wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:07 pm
Sounds like an elongated screw but axial flow.
I've seen pictures of wartime/pre-war turbines or compressors that looked like worm gears, but I can't find any. Here are a couple single-'stage,' single-screw hydraulic screw pumps:

https://www.eagleburgmann.com/media/adm ... mage_large

https://www.eagleburgmann.com/media/adm ... mage_large

Would a scroll compressor could meet the letter of the rules? While matching speed with the turbine.

Eccentric mud motors come to mind. A pneumatic version would probably be inefficient, hard to balance, prone to failure. Right at home on the RA15H, then.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ump%29.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... mation.gif
Modern day compressors do look like that actually. Screw compressors. Just like your typical roots supercharger too.
This design though very efficient, has a LOT of drawbacks in terms of rotation speed. They are heavy and cannot rotate very fast. A very small clearance is between the casing and the rotors. For good "Bite" a minimum of two rotors are needed so the timing gears add more weight. The gears have to be oiled and god help you if the oil gets too hot. They are also large for the same amount of air flow as a radial compressor.

anthonyfa18
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by anthonyfa18 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm

this is a trackside at budpest test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z44kLeNinJg

the parts that are being test sound good and look fast mabe a new mgu-h and mgu-k comming befor the spec 3

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:25 pm

We need a translator :lol:
Within the team, we analyze the three sectors with more detailed comparisons. I knew that the slow sector 1 is not due to power shortage, but the behavior of fast turn 3 going down further from descending low speed turn 2 is undesirable.

"Turn 1 - 2 - 3, it makes me feel like" Oops ...... "(bitter smile) There is a car that goes downhill and turns back (turns back from Turn 2 to 3) If it is not good you can not get into inside and you can not run well.The rise to Turn 3 has been delayed.The car like Honda somehow managed like that somehow (bitter smile) 」(Tanabe Technical Director)

Actually, the situation that stability is lacking at the start while turning the steering back and the traction is not applied is one of the weak points that STR 13 has been holding from the beginning of the season. However, this time, we were able to break down these weaknesses from Friday to Sunday, which led to a good run in the Hungarian Grand Prix final.

"There are places I do not understand a bit clearly, as I have to look at what will happen in the spa (the 13th round), as I have seen more than expected performance, much lower than expected That's what it is. "
Original: チーム内では、3つのセクターをもっと細かな比較で分析している。セクター1が遅いのはパワー不足によるものではなく、下りの低速ターン2からさらに下っていく高速ターン3の挙動が思わしくないためだとわかっていた。

「ターン1~2~3で、『おっとっと……』っていう感じになるんですよね(苦笑)。下り坂で入っていって切り返していくというあそこ(ターン2から3への切り返し)は、クルマがよくないと中に入っていけなくてうまく走れないんです。ターン3への立ち上がりが遅くなってしまって。昔のなんとかホンダっていうクルマもそうでしたね(苦笑)」(田辺テクニカルディレクター)

 実は、ステアリングを切り返しながらの立ち上がりでスタビリティ(安定性)が不足し、トラクションがかからないという状況は、STR13がシーズン序盤からずっと抱えてきた弱点のひとつだ。しかし今回は、金曜から日曜にかけてこうした弱点を潰し込めたことがハンガリーGP決勝での好走につながった。

「スパ(第13戦)でどうなるか、見てみないとね。まだいくつかはっきりと理解できていないところがあるんだ。今週のように予想以上のパフォーマンスを発揮したり、予想を大きく下回ってしまったりというのが、それだ」