Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

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ScottB
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by ScottB » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 pm

They are relatively decent looking, concept 1 looks like a modernised early 2000’s car. Concept 3 would be my choice, as, personally, I like all the little appendages and complex surfaces on today’s cars; F1 should be at the extreme, and all those little bits show them working every part as hard as possible.

I hope they don’t get retro for that reason, F1 isn’t the pinnacle of racing technology with a throwback, or a car that’s as simplistic as an F2. There also has to be freedom for individual interpretation, we should be able to tell the cars apart, basically!

djos
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by djos » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:37 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:52 pm
djos wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:11 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:03 pm


Minimal wings??? Have you actually seen the wings on an Indycar???? I've said it before (based on evidence) a big rear wing is better for a following car than underbody aero.
The racing in the late 90's Champ Car series would strongly suggest otherwise.

I get the impression you are likely in your 20's? If so you missed out on some of the best single seat racing seasons in the history of motor racing imo.
This looks like a big rear wing to me...


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... n_Hall.jpg

Oh, and asking his age is irrelevant - look at the user's technical input in to the forum, especially the link to his PhD thesis where he assessed this very subject.
I don't think the wings on the Lola cars were as big and iirc they were the better car as they had very well developed under body tunnels.

Image

I was only asking if jjn had seen the champ car racing in the late 90's, not questioning his academic credentials.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

roon
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by roon » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:05 pm

I wonder how the large and well funded aero departments at all the teams react when they see images like these.

Budget caps, spec aero.

Should I read an implicit message in all this for them: you guys are too expensive and your services are no longer required.

djos
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by djos » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:22 pm

Btw for anyone interested, here is the floor from a Lola Champ Car.

Image
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by Just_a_fan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:17 am

Seems to me that is not a "well developed tunnel" at all. Certainly not in the way that F1 and Group C did tunnels, anyway.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

djos
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by djos » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:45 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:17 am
Seems to me that is not a "well developed tunnel" at all. Certainly not in the way that F1 and Group C did tunnels, anyway.
Considering this is from nearly 20 years ago it's quite nicely developed - the Tunnel is even partially enclosed. Those things were dammed effective and the racing, even on street circuits, was excellent.

Just look at the tiny Oval wings they ran - imo this gives an excellent indication of how much downforce the underbody generated.

Image

PS, my recollection is that they were generating something like 2,000kgs of DF just from the underbody tunnels @ 200mph.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

jjn9128
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by jjn9128 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:34 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:17 am
Seems to me that is not a "well developed tunnel" at all. Certainly not in the way that F1 and Group C did tunnels, anyway.
Those Indy floors were very well developed and optimized. Really cool aero!

F1 and group C didn't do things the same way. There's an interview somewhere with the designer of the Porsche 962 group C about underbody aero - they tried copying the F1 ground effect design and didn't get anywhere near the downforce they expected - in fact the group C cars worked better when air was coming into the diffuser from the sides - which F1 prevented by using the side skirts.
Jin.
#aerogandalf

jjn9128
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by jjn9128 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:55 am

KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 pm
@jjn9128 - did you use a rough representation of an F1 car or was you able to source actual F1 car data for your model?
I don't really want to hijack this thread, I suppose it's sort of relevant to what Liberty are trying to achieve but there's a whole thread on my PhD and ideas on overtaking. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26379

KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 pm
Just interested to know the difference in effect of the wake off the back of a current Williams vs a Red Bull/Mercedes? Performance on track looks huge difference, especially in qualifying but would there be a difference in the 'wake profile', or whatever it's official technical name is?
Performance differences look huge but all the cars are well within 107% at every race, typically there's only around a 3-5% discrepancy on one lap pace between top and bottom teams. The margins are so small there wont be a massive difference, there will be some differences but the bulk structure of the wake will be very similar.

KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 pm
Going forward into 2021 the areo regs could be written to allow closer racing (reduce wake/turbulent air), could team still add bodywork with little effect on their performance but drastically reduce the chance the follow closely for the car behind?
The main cause of downforce loss is dynamic pressure, i.e. drag, so I can't envision teams do any work to make life harder for a following car - because it hurts performance. Typically they don't care what comes off the back of the car because that's spent air, they'll focus their energy/money where it can influence performance. We have to wait until the 2021 rules are released to have any idea what the impact will be/what teams can do.

KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 pm
I've always wondered if regs could be written to say the air behind the car must become 'neutral' after 8 (or x)meters?
I'm of the belief this is really the only way to help racing. Teams supply FIA/FOM with a model of the car which will race for FIA/FOM to test in a common CFD - or FIA/FOM request a certain raft of CFD data to check compliance. As I said teams typically don't care what comes off the back of the car - a rule like this would force them to. If your new package doesn't comply you have to use the old one. It could go hand-in-hand with a budget cap where updates are restricted through the year, giving time for all the studies to be completed.
Jin.
#aerogandalf

strad
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by strad » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:43 pm

I'd ask you a question you should know the answer to.. What does the "G" in F.O.G. stand for?
Liberty is not the whole "G". They still need consensus.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

MtthsMlw
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by MtthsMlw » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:25 am


djos
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by djos » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:27 pm

Hooray!!!! The current cars are waaaay too long!

And underbody tunnels returning with simpler Wings is imo very good news too! Although the lack of fixed skirts is a bit silly, the Champ Car's had partially sealed tunnels with fixed side-skirts which worked great back in the day. relying on vortex generators to seal the floor sides seems counter intuitive to me.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Big Tea
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by Big Tea » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:12 pm

Looking at the picture, they seem to be considering flat 4 longstroke engines :D
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

nokivasara
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by nokivasara » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:50 pm

I'm all for shorter wheel base and (even) more power! [-o<

Manoah2u
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:13 pm

doesn't look too bad actually
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Edax
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Re: Liberty Media New F1 from 2021

Post by Edax » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:34 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:13 pm
doesn't look too bad actually
I am going to save this picture, and put it next to whatever the engineers dream up.

It always keeps amazing me how the creativity of the engineers surpasses that of the rulesmakers. Not in a negative way, for me it is one of the best things in F1.