Qualifying format idea

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jjn9128
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:25 pm

I had an idea for qualifying which probably wouldn't work or would require a bit of thinking/tinkering to make it work.

Session 1, a 15/20minute session like q1 now with all cars able to compete - positions 11 to 20 are set with the fastest 10 going into session 2.

Session 2 is an elimination qualifying race. Sort of like the elimination race in track cycling but instead of being the last over the line being knocked out it's the slowest driver on each lap who is knocked out. So the cars go out in order with a pre-set gap between them (fastest from q1 chooses where to start from 1-10 with the rest following in order, i.e. they can choose to go out 5th so first out would be 6th from q1, or choose to go out last which would put 2nd from q1 out first...etc or maybe that's in reverse order so they can't play games). So they fuel up for 17/18 laps and after they've all completed a lap the slowest on that lap is knocked out, then a cool down lap to charge batteries and create space while the slowest car pits, then they go again. You could get a slightly mixed order in the top 10 if someone under-fuels or uses all their electrical energy to get a higher spot or if someone makes a mistake on their lap, so:
Lap 1, out lap
Lap 2, 10th set
Lap 3, cool down
Lap 4, 9th set
Lap 5, cool down
...
Lap 16, 3rd set
Lap 17, cool down
Lap 18, is a pole position shoot out with the 2 remaining cars

It would require tyres capable of doing 20 odd laps without suffering like the Pirelli's do after 3... It's also not a format for the purists. Could be exciting, but equally could get a bit tactical.
#aerogandalf

NathanOlder
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by NathanOlder » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:46 pm

How about 3 sessions but instead of a set number dropping out each session, have a set time to get in.

Q1 you have to be inside 104% to progress
Q2 you have to be inside 102% to progress
Q3 shootout with whoever remains.


Maybe the numbers need tweaking, maybe even tweaked for each track?

Just an idea.
GoLandoGo
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:04 pm

How about leaving qualifying as it is because it's the best bit of F1 today? Change is ok, change for the sake of change is not ok.

We've seen various formats of qualifying - dreamed up to make things more exciting and none has been as good as the current scheme. Don't go giving the FIA/Liberty ideas about convoluted and difficult to follow qualifying schemes, please.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

NathanOlder
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by NathanOlder » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:38 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:04 pm
How about leaving qualifying as it is because it's the best bit of F1 today? Change is ok, change for the sake of change is not ok.

We've seen various formats of qualifying - dreamed up to make things more exciting and none has been as good as the current scheme. Don't go giving the FIA/Liberty ideas about convoluted and difficult to follow qualifying schemes, please.
I totally agree, I'm just coming up with an idea as it seems the idiots that own the sport will continue to wreck everything we all love.
GoLandoGo
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DiogoBrand
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by DiogoBrand » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:51 pm

I have a better idea. Instead of making all cars qualify behind each other and overtake one another, why don't we just make three 15 minute sessions when everyone can set their fastest laps, and we eliminate the slowest on the first two sessions, leaving only the 10 best for the third (We can call that Q3). Then those 10 cars go on track and set the fastest laps possible to fight for the first 10 starting positions.

DiogoBrand
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by DiogoBrand » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:56 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:46 pm
How about 3 sessions but instead of a set number dropping out each session, have a set time to get in.

Q1 you have to be inside 104% to progress
Q2 you have to be inside 102% to progress
Q3 shootout with whoever remains.


Maybe the numbers need tweaking, maybe even tweaked for each track?

Just an idea.
If you take this year's British GP qualifying, the worst lap from Q1 was within 4% of the pole lap, so the percentages would definitely need some tweaking. The idea doesn't sound terrible, though(Believe me, this is a compliment).

ian_s
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by ian_s » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:28 am

an alternative to that last idea is change the 107% rule so that you have to be under the 107% time in the session you qualify for, and maybe lower times for q2 and q3
so if your knocked out in q1 you have to meet 107%, same as now
knocked out in q2 your have to do 105% of the fastest time in q2 or get put to that back of the grid
in q3, you have to do 103% of the pole time or go to the back of the grid.

this will stop teams getting through to q3 and not bothering to run, they have to or risk starting at the back

zac510
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by zac510 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:04 pm
How about leaving qualifying as it is because it's the best bit of F1 today? Change is ok, change for the sake of change is not ok.

We've seen various formats of qualifying - dreamed up to make things more exciting and none has been as good as the current scheme. Don't go giving the FIA/Liberty ideas about convoluted and difficult to follow qualifying schemes, please.
Of course none of the ideas are thoroughly thought out. You can tell because they don't list a single negative point, or even what the objective of the qualifying rules are (ie, is it merely to set any grid, or a grid in a particular order?). Most of them barely even consider basic problems like what if it rains in the middle of a single lap qualifying session.
Nor do they consider any commercial issues, like the risk of reducing sponsor/airtime of poorer teams, or where to allow (necessary evil) ad breaks to be taken.
Even if someone was really serious about their idea they could model it and run thousands of simulations of qualifying sessions to assess the probability of extreme outcomes or the accuracy against their objective. Then compare those outcomes to the current qualifying model.

They are just the product of a poster's fantasy.

Fulcrum
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by Fulcrum » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:12 pm

Qualifying is fine. Some randomness, but it mostly rewards those that have earned it.

I'd prefer to see a freeing of the regulations around tyre use. Let teams choose their tyre allocations from any of the available range - e.g. if someone wants to bring 12 sets of Hypers to Silverstone, let them - and let them race what they've brought however they like.

This "must use at least 2 compounds in the race" is the height of artificiality. Yes, I know there are plenty of other arbitrary rules, but that one does annoy me, as it practically guarantees race strategies are convergent, especially when the tyres become more durable - which seems inevitable with Pirelli.

Ringleheim
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by Ringleheim » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:08 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:04 pm
How about leaving qualifying as it is because it's the best bit of F1 today? Change is ok, change for the sake of change is not ok.

We've seen various formats of qualifying - dreamed up to make things more exciting and none has been as good as the current scheme. Don't go giving the FIA/Liberty ideas about convoluted and difficult to follow qualifying schemes, please.
I wish you would explain why it is the best part of F1 today? There have been many different approaches to F1 qualifying over the years. I don't think this one is particularly better than the others, and as I mentioned up-thread, we miss most of what we want to see most, right at the end of Q3.

We always just end up with that long camera lens looking up the start/finish straight, waiting for all the top runners to cross the line so we can see relative times.

We miss so much of what's going on with the current setup.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Qualifying format idea

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:58 am

Ringleheim wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:08 am


We miss so much of what's going on with the current setup.
It works because it gives everyone the same chance to perform. The other schemes proposed (and tried before) where drivers have a lap to themselves etc., place the drivers at the mercy of the weather and track development. A shower of rain midway through an "allocated lap" style qualifying kills the chances of the drivers on track at the time and those following. Anyone who was out before the shower wins big time. We've seen this happen before so we know.

Likewise track development. We saw back in the days of single lap qualifying that the drivers at the start of qualifying lost out compared to the last driver to run - who is already the most successful driver of the season and so the quickest anyway.

The current system allows for varying weather and track development and puts the decision of when to try for the lap with the team and driver. That's as it should be.

As for not seeing enough of what's going on - that's a fault of FOM and the TV directors etc., not a problem with qualifying. Qualifying is there to determine grid order based on the quickest guy at the front. It does that very well as it is. Now, if you want to have the chance of mixed grids (and I think that might be why some people want change), then you may as well just draw numbers from a hat and run a support race on track for qualifying hour instead.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."