Sporting regulation idea

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DiogoBrand
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Sporting regulation idea

Post by DiogoBrand » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:56 am

After the Leclerc/Magnussen incident I was thinking: Shouldn't there be a rule for how late a defending driver can change lanes? This was also the case with Hamilton vs Rosberg at Spain in 2016, as well as pretty much every time Verstappen is defending. If the driver in front leaves it to cover the inside at the last possible moment, there isn't any regulation that I'm aware of that prevents him from doing so, so perhaps there should be something like.

"The defending driver can only move if the car behind is a car lenght behind or more."

That way, when this kind of blocking happens there will actually be basis in the regulations to apply a penalty.
What do you guys think? If there already is such rule and I'm not aware of it, just ignore.

WaikeCU
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by WaikeCU » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:25 am

Won’t happen until something very bad happens. A car flying across the track or into the fence, stands, bridge, etc. Some accident where a red flag is required.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:31 am

If you want to define such a distance, you have to ensure that the drivers are able to assess it - "a car length" would be tricky for a driver to assess just in the mirrors. It would be annoying to have a penalty given because the driver got it wrong by a foot, for example. So you'd need a system to warn the driver. And then he needs to see it and react in time.

I think the answer is that the drivers that routinely cause damage should just be docked points. You get a couple of "oops, sorry mate didn't see you" excuses per season and then you and your team start having points docked.

Or you just accept that it's a feature of racing these days - the cars are so safe that the young drivers coming through have got blasé about it all. These drivers should be getting taken to task on their driving standards in the junior formulae, not in F1.
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DiogoBrand
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by DiogoBrand » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:42 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:31 am
If you want to define such a distance, you have to ensure that the drivers are able to assess it - "a car length" would be tricky for a driver to assess just in the mirrors. It would be annoying to have a penalty given because the driver got it wrong by a foot, for example. So you'd need a system to warn the driver. And then he needs to see it and react in time.

I think the answer is that the drivers that routinely cause damage should just be docked points. You get a couple of "oops, sorry mate didn't see you" excuses per season and then you and your team start having points docked.

Or you just accept that it's a feature of racing these days - the cars are so safe that the young drivers coming through have got blasé about it all. These drivers should be getting taken to task on their driving standards in the junior formulae, not in F1.
I don't mean a hard limit like "If you move after 30cm less than a car lenght, you'll get a penalty", first because the driver's can't know for sure what is a car lenght, and second because there are different car lenghts, but I do think there should be a distance between the cars for you to change your line.
I feel like most dirty maneuvers are already covered by the rules, but this is an exception. Verstappen did this to Raikkonen at Spa (last year I think), to Ricciardo at Baku, and several other times. Magnussen did it this weekend, Rosberg did it to Hamilton at Spain in 2016, we all know it's wrong and even dangerous, but there isn't any rule that says so.

Basically what I mean is, if you wanna get dirty when defending, you can change lines as late as you want and technically you're not doing anything wrong, and I believe there should be something to fix this. If you move after there's enough time for the driver behind to react, you should be penalized.

mertol
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by mertol » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:05 am

Why is this a problem? If you do stupid stuff like this you probably are not going to finish which is enough of a penalty already. Also your reputation is hurt and in a normally functioning F1 your chances of retaining a seat for next season should diminish.

Phil
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by Phil » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:08 pm

I feel most of what you are asking, is already in fact part of the racing etiquette. It's not a rule or regulation per say, but it is what is generally accepted to be fair.

In the Baku topic of this year in the aftermath of the clash between Max and Ricciardo, I posted this very enlightening video:



In it, they explain the difference between defending and blocking. In other words, it's blocking, when the driver ahead reacts to the movement of his attacker. It's akin to using your car as a moveable blocking object. Obviously, in todays racing with DRS, the speed differentials between a car attempting an overtake and one defending can mean closing speeds of up to 10 meters per second. The wheel base of a modern F1 car is <4 meters. At such closing speeds, obviously, there's a certain reaction time one needs to account for, the closing speed one travels in that time and the ability to still safely maneuver the car at speeds above 300kmh. You also need to account for loss of downforce when driving in another cars wake.

Obviously, when the car in front jinxes into your path 10meters in front of you, there's pretty much nothing you can do to still avoid a collision. In that sense, the etiquette is and should be that drivers defending their position should cover the inside early enough to it not be deemed a blocking maneuver (e.g. as a reaction of the car behind). If you go to the inside before the car behind you attempts an overtake, it's fair game.

Now, putting this into practice isn't that easy. Sometimes, drivers, especially the ones overtaking, will move late as a result of using the tow and slipstream for as long as possible. The defending driver can not possibly know if he will then pull out to the inside or outside. Sometimes, it goes wrong, sometimes it doesn't. Still with such high closing speeds, I feel it's the job of the defending car to take that into account by making their intentions clear well before the braking zone that they are covering the inside and that the inside is a "blocked path". By the rule that only 1 defensive move is allowed, this forces the defending car to stay on the inside. If he moves back to the racing line to take the corner, he must leave at least a full-car-width of space to not crowd the other car beyond the track.
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marmer
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by marmer » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:33 pm

what about a blind spot detector on the mirror so it would light up red if a car is either directly behind (both mirrors light on) or either side when a car is less than a cars length. once a car is within this range the defending driver would not be allowed to make any drastic changes in speed or direction without facing a pen.

notsofast
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by notsofast » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:21 pm

Human abilities seem to keep increasing, as witnessed by records being broken all the time. Perhaps it's the same with reaction time. The younger generation seems to be able to handle things like defending in the braking zone. We should not encourage dirty driving, but we also need to be careful to not block progress.

Fulcrum
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by Fulcrum » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:26 pm

I don't see why the FIA couldn't install a sensor (IR or something like it) on the rear crash structure to measure the distance of approaching cars.

Coupling that with steering angle information would provide the stewards with concrete data as to when a driver chose to perform a defensive maneuver. An automatic time penalty could be levied if the driver attempting to pass was within X metres before the lead driver made a defensive change of direction.

zac510
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by zac510 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:36 pm

notsofast wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:21 pm
Human abilities seem to keep increasing, as witnessed by records being broken all the time. Perhaps it's the same with reaction time. The younger generation seems to be able to handle things like defending in the braking zone. We should not encourage dirty driving, but we also need to be careful to not block progress.
Reaction time is even pretty similar between all people (sports/non-sports), recent performance developments are down to nutrition, training, and selecting for physical attributes.
Many track and field records have plateaued but lots of recently broken F1 records seemingly can be attributed to having 21 races per season, IMO.

Jolle
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by Jolle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:43 pm

notsofast wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:21 pm
Human abilities seem to keep increasing, as witnessed by records being broken all the time. Perhaps it's the same with reaction time. The younger generation seems to be able to handle things like defending in the braking zone. We should not encourage dirty driving, but we also need to be careful to not block progress.
Dirty driving should be handled, but it's far from a new thing. It's more a case of new insight and new ways to communicate (you didn't have Internet forums when Senna and Prost drove each other off track).

Even something recent like Button's epic drive where he won the Canadian GP in the rain. He did drive his teammate into the wall. At the time and even during the GP, it was seen as Hamiltons' mistake, now it would be seen as a stupid move by Button.

I've been a loyal F1 fan for decades. I haven't noticed any real change in how stupid some drivers defend or attack or that just they try to be at the same piece of track.

marmer
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by marmer » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:10 pm

Jolle wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:43 pm
notsofast wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:21 pm
Human abilities seem to keep increasing, as witnessed by records being broken all the time. Perhaps it's the same with reaction time. The younger generation seems to be able to handle things like defending in the braking zone. We should not encourage dirty driving, but we also need to be careful to not block progress.
Dirty driving should be handled, but it's far from a new thing. It's more a case of new insight and new ways to communicate (you didn't have Internet forums when Senna and Prost drove each other off track).

Even something recent like Button's epic drive where he won the Canadian GP in the rain. He did drive his teammate into the wall. At the time and even during the GP, it was seen as Hamiltons' mistake, now it would be seen as a stupid move by Button.

I've been a loyal F1 fan for decades. I haven't noticed any real change in how stupid some drivers defend or attack or that just they try to be at the same piece of track.
What button did was far more subtle than what k mag did and it was wet in Canada. Yes he blocked Hamilton but you could see it was going to happen for a good while Hamilton just didn't back off until he lost his front wing if my memory serves me

strad
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Re: Sporting regulation idea

Post by strad » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:06 am

I totally agree with J. R. !!!
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