2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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iotar__
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by iotar__ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am

turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:32 am
iotar__ wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:22 am
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
Can we atleast agree the idea of "it's not an overtaking place" is quite bonkers? It's not the corner that presents an overtaking opportunity, but it's your distance, closing speed and a gap that determines that. Nobody is driving around with a list of none-overtake places around in his or her head. I have never seen one driver who neglected an overtaking opportunity because the reasoning is "this is not an usual overtaking spot".

This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2, I've personally had enough of it as well. I would also personally encourage to stop discussing this. I think by now anybody has an opinion that they will stick to it.
I don't see any quotes so let's put this in straw man category =P~ .

Numerous people are wasting time discussing characteristics of one particular bad overtaking attempt thus validating this spot as a place where overtaking is possible. Of course in the context of lack of penalty for wreckles driving and causing a collision.

There's even a video linked (F1 official youtube channel onboards) with well not overtaking but passing by Haas there ~4:30. The speed Ferrari takes through the corner (later stage) is very telling. It's telling us is that when you brake like Vettel. move suddenly left you won't make it through the corner. Either that or it was sensible or whatever Whiting called it attempt :D .
Same goes for you, iotar:
This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2
If the issue does not exist (most people are discussing the damn thing) disclaimers like that don't matter. Yes you can overtake, SO :wink: ?

iotar__
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by iotar__ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am

Steven wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:52 pm

I'm not sure if anybody brought this up yet, but the incident is a mirrored version of Verstappen's defensive move against Ricciardo at Baku. That, predictably, also went bust. Verstappen there too changes lines twice, and still believes it's all perfectly acceptable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36YFQTFzZwU

For me, it is not. It is almost unavoidable that these tactics be no other way :cry:
I did. The context was also: that's why FIA is not touching driving like that in previous and this GP. They know they cheated in Baku so it's head in the sand time.

It's also funny in the context of "where is overtaking" laments. Think about it, if you can defend like that (disclaimer: not Magnussen bashing) any driver behind will think twice before thinking about doing anything :wink: . Safety first FIA doesn't mind either so why not.

turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:40 am

sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:12 pm
Steven wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:12 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:58 pm
Funny thing about that Verstappen move in Baku, it's quite similar what Vettel did to Hamilton in Russia... defend the left, then go right, to the wal, slight hesitation and then close the gap to the wall.

oh, and Rosberg in Spain of course, but then with grass...
Agreed. Vettel's move in Russia was equally bad. Two moves. Last time I checked, this wasn't allowed.

Rosberg in Spain 2016 was indeed similar.
I honestly can't understand how can you compare these 2 incidents with Baku incident!? :wtf:
-High speed
-High closing in speed
-Very late defensive move
-More than 2 moves (even if Whiting says it is only one move; we should be critical on his judgement for that). This wasn't the case for Hamilton for Rosberg, but you know... he pushed him off the track onto the grass.

There are of course always differences, but they do have those 3 points in common.
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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:47 am

iotar__ wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am
If the issue does not exist (most people are discussing the damn thing) disclaimers like that don't matter.
Eh yeah they matter. I had a fierce discussion yesterday with 2 others about this where my words where taken out of context despite the disclaimer. I have a whole lot less patience today, so that part closes here. The discussion has finally moved on as requested. I will not hesitate to enforce that.
Yes you can overtake, SO :wink: ?
SO people should stop labelling corners as overtakeable/not overtakeable. That was the whole point; people tend to label certain corners like that, but don't factor in that for instance some corners (leading up to the contested corners) now are basically straights. It's not just Spoon, but also Eau Rouge and parts of the high speed corners of Silverstone.
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:13 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:40 am
-High speed
-High closing in speed
-Very late defensive move
-More than 2 moves (even if Whiting says it is only one move; we should be critical on his judgement for that). This wasn't the case for Hamilton for Rosberg, but you know... he pushed him off the track onto the grass.
Apparently, they decided not to punish the Kevin / Leclerc incident because both started to move to the inside at the same time. From what I read (I didn't check it myself), the difference in reaction was a few frames - way too short for it to be a move in reaction to what Leclerc was doing.

So in that sense, I sort of agree with the decision not to step in and penalize either driver. If Kevin had moved in reaction to Leclerc, by all means, throw the book at him. But what if they both move at the same time and simply move in the same direction?

I think Kevin needs to take some responsibility. If there is a car closing from behind, driving a lot faster, moving late to defend is at your own risk. If you end up moving into the other cars path, you are leaving the car behind little opportunity to avoid a potentially dangerous collision. This will most likely end in a DNF for both if it's a nasty hit. You are then paying the price for reacting late.

On the other hand, if Leclerc leaves it late to commit to decide if he will attempt the pass on the outside or inside, it is to some degree at his own risk. He knows he is closing extremely fast. He is by his own free will staying in the other cars slipstream. The later you move out, the higher the risk you might move directly into the cars path defensive-maneuver. Give yourself more margin, you lose the tow sooner, but you are also giving the car in front more margin to commit to either the inside or outside.

Generally however, I think the onus on defensive driving is to a large degree on the driver defending a position. If he knows his position is vulnerable on a straight, I think there's a certain responsibility to highlight your intentions of defending the inside line early enough and not react to your attackers movement. You then cover the inside and the attacker will like stay tucked in behind you for the tow until moving to the outside.

If the defending driver chooses to occupy the inside line and leave his 'defensive-move' for as late as possible, then he is IMO playing with fire and risking a collision, even if his late move is not in reaction the guy behind. Having said that, I'd put the blame at Kevin for driving in the middle and leaving his defensive move way too late.


About Rosberg/Hamilton 2016 - that is not comparable at all, because Rosberg speed was compromised as a result of being in the wrong engine mode. If you are driving a compromised car, I think you should not be allowed to defend your move too hard, because any 'blocking maneuvers' (which IMO should be severely punished anyway) have large consequences: High closing speed = no time to react = big accident. Same applies to DRS overtakes on long straights when the other car is closing at 10m/s and the car in front starts reacting to the attackers movement (Max on Ricciardo at Baku).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:13 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:40 am
-High speed
-High closing in speed
-Very late defensive move
-More than 2 moves (even if Whiting says it is only one move; we should be critical on his judgement for that). This wasn't the case for Hamilton for Rosberg, but you know... he pushed him off the track onto the grass.
Apparently, they decided not to punish the Kevin / Leclerc incident because both started to move to the inside at the same time. From what I read (I didn't check it myself), the difference in reaction was a few frames - way too short for it to be a move in reaction to what Leclerc was doing.

So in that sense, I sort of agree with the decision not to step in and penalize either driver. If Kevin had moved in reaction to Leclerc, by all means, throw the book at him. But what if they both move at the same time and simply move in the same direction?

I think Kevin needs to take some responsibility. If there is a car closing from behind, driving a lot faster, moving late to defend is at your own risk. If you end up moving into the other cars path, you are leaving the car behind little opportunity to avoid a potentially dangerous collision. This will most likely end in a DNF for both if it's a nasty hit. You are then paying the price for reacting late.

On the other hand, if Leclerc leaves it late to commit to decide if he will attempt the pass on the outside or inside, it is to some degree at his own risk. He knows he is closing extremely fast. He is by his own free will staying in the other cars slipstream. The later you move out, the higher the risk you might move directly into the cars path defensive-maneuver. Give yourself more margin, you lose the tow sooner, but you are also giving the car in front more margin to commit to either the inside or outside.

Generally however, I think the onus on defensive driving is to a large degree on the driver defending a position. If he knows his position is vulnerable on a straight, I think there's a certain responsibility to highlight your intentions of defending the inside line early enough and not react to your attackers movement. You then cover the inside and the attacker will like stay tucked in behind you for the tow until moving to the outside.

If the defending driver chooses to occupy the inside line and leave his 'defensive-move' for as late as possible, then he is IMO playing with fire and risking a collision, even if his late move is not in reaction the guy behind. Having said that, I'd put the blame at Kevin for driving in the middle and leaving his defensive move way too late.


About Rosberg/Hamilton 2016 - that is not comparable at all, because Rosberg speed was compromised as a result of being in the wrong engine mode. If you are driving a compromised car, I think you should not be allowed to defend your move too hard, because any 'blocking maneuvers' (which IMO should be severely punished anyway) have large consequences: High closing speed = no time to react = big accident. Same applies to DRS overtakes on long straights when the other car is closing at 10m/s and the car in front starts reacting to the attackers movement (Max on Ricciardo at Baku).
They moved with a slight delay to eachother. I can believe the story about it is not a reaction to one another, but it's still the defender's responsibility, as you say yourself. So for the record: full agree.

Anyway, seems Whiting now has changed his mind about this:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... /3193183/4
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dans79
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:36 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Anyway, seems Whiting now has changed his mind about this:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... /3193183/4
The link appears to be broken.

turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:41 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:36 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Anyway, seems Whiting now has changed his mind about this:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... /3193183/4
The link appears to be broken.
Strange, maybe I accidently and unknowingly hit the 4 before copying or after passing it. Correct link:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... a/3193183/
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TAG
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by TAG » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:00 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:41 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:36 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Anyway, seems Whiting now has changed his mind about this:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... /3193183/4
The link appears to be broken.
Strange, maybe I accidently and unknowingly hit the 4 before copying or after passing it. Correct link:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... a/3193183/
So Vettel's move in Sochi would have been illegal now? I mean it was always not legal according to the letter of the rules, but hey there's always stewards interpretation and time an again examples of treating the championship leaders with kid glove. It does feel like formula WWF1 at times.
5 Time WDC Party Mode ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Phil
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:15 pm

This isn't the Sochi thread, but I think Vettel should be in the clear for that one. As the article suggests, Vettels movement was more or less one consistent move (with perhaps a minuscule moment of hesitation inbetween). It looked exaggerated from Hamilton's onboard, but from the front view, it looks like one consistent move.

I think generally the problem happens, when:

1.)
Defending drivers neither commit to the inside or the outside but stay in the middle of the track for as long as possible and then make their defensive move rather late

2.)
Attacking drivers tend to want to use the tow for as long as possible to gain the largest [speed] advantage possible in their attempt to overtake

3.)
By doing this, they can allow themselves more time to see what the defending driver does

4.)
Due to higher closing speeds, it creates a dangerous situation where there is an increased chance of a bad collision for both.

5.)
Other considerations are that the "racing line" with the most grip does not follow the track in a straight line. It may go from the right-side of the track to the left-side. Anything beyond the racing line is "dirty" with potentially dust and marbles, so a place drivers don't want to be without compromising their tires and position.

6.)
Assuming the racing line does mean that the natural line will take a car from one side of the track to the other, is this handled as a "defensive move"? For example: if the racing line along a straight goes from the right-side of the track (outside from the previous corner) to the left-side of the track (outside for the next corner), the defensive-move to cover the "inside" for the next corner would be staying on the right-side of the track. Most drivers defending their position hard will probably stay on the racing line for as long as possible and only commit to their defensive move as late as possible....
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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sosic2121
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by sosic2121 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm

TAG wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:00 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:41 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:36 pm


The link appears to be broken.
Strange, maybe I accidently and unknowingly hit the 4 before copying or after passing it. Correct link:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... a/3193183/
So Vettel's move in Sochi would have been illegal now? I mean it was always not legal according to the letter of the rules, but hey there's always stewards interpretation and time an again examples of treating the championship leaders with kid glove. It does feel like formula WWF1 at times.
I think you should (maybe Lewis and Charlie should too) rewatch the video of Sochi "incident".
There was no second move. When Lewis came close, Vettel turned right to cover the inside, and from that moment on, he kept moving in a straight line across the track. No 2nd move!
In reaction to Vettels move, Lewis decided he wants to get there first, but this is never going to work.

In Baku Verstappen made 3 or 4 moves and got away with it. In Spa he reacted to Kimi's move, no penalty. In Hungary he made classic two moves, caused collision and received no penalty(and robbed us of great overtake on track you can't overtake).

So what are we taking about here!?

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:14 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:15 pm
This isn't the Sochi thread, but I think Vettel should be in the clear for that one. As the article suggests, Vettels movement was more or less one consistent move (with perhaps a minuscule moment of hesitation inbetween). It looked exaggerated from Hamilton's onboard, but from the front view, it looks like one consistent move.
I'm going to disagree, The front view will always make everything look less noticeable because its much farther away, so perspective play a big part in perception.

Regardless Vettels on-board shows the different story. As Hamilton closes in, he turns the wheel slightly to the right and then straitens it out. Thus he is not moving across the track at a constant rate. However as Lewis goes even further right than Vettel, Vettel turns the wheel to the right twice more in quick succession, to ensure he blocks him off.

imo, this is why you see Whiting/FIA making the statement now about two moves regardless of direction. Vettel got lucky because what he did is not strictly prohibited by the rules, so now the loophole is being closed.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by GrandAxe » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:32 pm

Magnussen's move on Leclerc should have been punished.
Its good that moves like Vettels on Lewis in Sochi are now now illegal, this will bring drivers like Max and Magnussen who regularly make such dirty moves under the cosh.

What is perplexing is that it took insistence from Lewis to get Charlie Whitting embarrassingly worded clarification.. It just illuminates the FIA's cack-handed, inconsistent approach to enforcing rules.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Andres125sx » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:46 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:15 pm
This isn't the Sochi thread, but I think Vettel should be in the clear for that one. As the article suggests, Vettels movement was more or less one consistent move (with perhaps a minuscule moment of hesitation inbetween). It looked exaggerated from Hamilton's onboard, but from the front view, it looks like one consistent move.
IMO, that should be the camera to analyse this sort of incidents/accidents, as the rule exist to prevent blocking to the car behind and causing an accident, so it´s the chasing driver perspective what should be analysed to clarify if he was blocked or not

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:50 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:32 pm
What is perplexing is that it took insistence from Lewis to get Charlie Whitting embarrassingly worded clarification.. It just illuminates the FIA's cack-handed, inconsistent approach to enforcing rules.
That's the problem with the FIA old guard. Their modus operandi is to do nothing that rocks the boat, and when they do get off their butts to do something, they do the minimal they can get away with. Instead of being proactive, they are reluctantly reactive.