2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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iotar__
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by iotar__ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:24 pm

Juzh wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:12 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm
F1NAC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm
Just look at stabilized video. It is one continuous movement from Vettel. Gentle movements from steering wheel

https://streamable.com/6u9o9
Take a look at the official on-boards (3:25).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwzYrqSjHtw

Also that footage has been doctored, as you don't see Bottas at all until he passes across the frame at the end of the video like a ghost.
It's been "doctored" in a way to easier see the actual movement of the cars. I'm not sure what you're implying here.
- It was not one continuous move.
- Ha, I'm loving it. Told you after Russia. Even description was the same: two moves in the same direction. FIA's reading F1T =P~ . Better late than never suckers.

Let's just wait, they might clarify Vettel's no penalty from Suzuka. too, or late side-braking moves,

sosic2121
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by sosic2121 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:39 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:14 pm
Regardless Vettels on-board shows the different story. As Hamilton closes in, he turns the wheel slightly to the right and then straitens it out. Thus he is not moving across the track at a constant rate. However as Lewis goes even further right than Vettel, Vettel turns the wheel to the right twice more in quick succession, to ensure he blocks him off.
I would have to watch the replay (I haven't), but just reading and going by what you are writing, doesn't this suggest a constant movement to the inside?

If he wouldn't be 'straightening' his steering wheel, he wouldn't be cutting across the track diagonally, but in a curve/radius like he would going around a corner?
I watched Vettel's onboard and I can't see his second move.
Juzh also posted a front view video which doesn't show second move.

On the other hand, any chance if Lewis asked Charlie about what he has done on Lap1 T3? It would be interesting for future reference.

iotar__
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by iotar__ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:06 pm

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13932 ... ied-by-fia
Reading drivel from FIA covering their tracks is infuriating. So let's get this straight you can make infinite amount of defensive moves in one direction as long as you take small breaks between them, Uh huh... "Subtle" slowing down is fine too? How do you measure small? Charlie W. decides of course.

If those small moves, and small moves are part of F1 driving, lead to less than subtle moves from drivers behind and in
consequence to series of big a.. crashes, so be it.

These are the people setting foundations of racing. The message is: if you're following a car, make sure you have enough time and space to react to many, many small moves in one direction. Expect the high speed unexpected.

Hey, how to we fix lack of overtakes again? Let's turn wheel to wheel or back to front into complete chaos. What's the point of arguing here when real world reference points are utterly absurd?

sosic2121
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by sosic2121 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:09 pm

iotar__ wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:06 pm
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13932 ... ied-by-fia
Reading drivel from FIA covering their tracks is infuriating. So let's get this straight you can make infinite amount of defensive moves in one direction as long as you take small breaks between them, Uh huh... "Subtle" slowing down is fine too? How do you measure small? Charlie W. decides of course.

If those small moves, and small moves are part of F1 driving, lead to less than subtle moves from drivers behind and in
consequence to series of big a.. crashes, so be it.

These are the people setting foundations of racing. The message is: if you're following a car, make sure you have enough time and space to react to many, many small moves in one direction. Expect the high speed unexpected.

Hey, how to we fix lack of overtakes again? Let's turn wheel to wheel or back to front into complete chaos. What's the point of arguing here when real world reference points are utterly absurd?
I believe you should rewatch the incident. There is also Vettel's onboard on YouTube.

Edax
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Edax » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:17 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:24 am
Edax wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
<snip>
I don’t want to get to get mixed in the VES VET slugfest, but I do like to respond to your first remark. I agree under the right circumstances overtaking is possible anywhere. People have done overtakes in Eau Rouge and Parabolica. But don’t you agree inside spoon it is extremely difficult?

Just, look at how you get there. You approach over a crest with the wrong side of the car loaded, the braking point itself is blind and downhill and the corner is off-camber. The racing line is extremely narrow. It is a prototypical example of the philosophy of Hugenholz, make a corner such that it tests the driver at speed and punishes them hard for not getting their line spot on (At that time they were less occupied with overtaking statistics).

Overtaking there might not be impossible but it is hard. Perhaps some have better memory than me but I cannot remember ever have seen it done this way. Overtaking when you are side by side in 200R, yes, or in the middle part of the corner combination when someone overcooked his entry, also, but from behind and on the apex, no.
If you watched the race you should know it may be difficult, but far from impossible, basically because some car passed at exactly that point in the race

But I agree it is not a standard overtaking point as spoon is narrow and difficult. But there´s a staight (it´s a corner, but flat out) from the hairpin to spoon, so the chasing car can go out of the hairpin close to the car in front, take advantage of the slipstream, and attack at spoon

Traditionally it has never been an overtaking point because corner 12 was not flat out or if it was there was no margin to loose some DF if getting too close to the car in front, so no chance to get into the slipstream of the car in front before spoon. But nowadays corner 12 is flat out easily so they can keep into the slipstream of the car in front and get to spoon really close
I could be mistaken but only overtake I can remember actually leading into Spoon was the overtake between Vettel and Grosjean. Here Grosjean, on the outside lost the car and had to leave the track. This ony reinforces my statement that Spoon is a big balls corner ( and perhaps not wide enough for four of them :wink: )

I have seen some overtakes in the braking zone for spoon ( I think RiC and VET overtook there) but here they already pulled out of the slipstream halfway the 200R and the move was basically done before entering the corner.

I am not sure you can run 2 cars next to each other there. Just look at how narrow it is (as seen from a normal lens and not the panoramic fisheyed things F1 uses)

Phil
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:36 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:48 pm

It might be my explanation or how you are thinking about it, but you are just slightly off.

Think about driving down a strait 2 lane high way in the left lane. If you turn your wheel slightly to the right, and then bring it back to the neutral (strait position), the car is going in a strait line, but it's trajectory is no longer parallel to the highway, instead its at a slight angle. Thus you will end up in the right lane eventually and have to turn the wheel left to get the car back in a trajectory parallel to the highway.
Gotcha! Thanks for explaining. Either way, even if Vettels movement down that straight at sochi suggests (small) alterations of his trajectory of moving to the inside, i think some of that can be explained by the imperfect track surface.

I think it’s just not possible driving a car at that speed in a perfect straight line without small corrections on the steering wheel. Perhaps we are just going a bit too far into micro management?

I absolutely agree with Charlie W. that defensive moves should be clear, precise and a singular movement. But where you start to draw that line if it isnt, well that’s a tough one.

Just as an example: anyone who has driven a car with sticky tires (semi slicks) will have noticed how the car pulls into the surfaces imperfection. In my car, i constantly have to make small corrections to keep the car on a perfectly straight trajectory, as the car will pull itself into the grooves of the track. Just imagine an F1 car with more sticky tires (slicks) and 4 times the speed. Such things would be easily exaggerated to the point i feel what Vettel did in Sochi is perfectly acceptable.

I also think Hamilton in that instance commited to a line that was already taken. The battle get to the gap quicker is always a dangerous one. IMO.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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zac510
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by zac510 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:47 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm

The fact the Charlie clarified with the drivers proves it was multiple moves. However under the rules at the time what Vettel did was not strictly prohibited, and thus not punishable.
That's really terrible logic. Correlation is not causation.

dans79
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:50 pm

zac510 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:47 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm

The fact the Charlie clarified with the drivers proves it was multiple moves. However under the rules at the time what Vettel did was not strictly prohibited, and thus not punishable.
That's really terrible logic. Correlation is not causation.
read the article, he directly refers to Vettel and Hamilton on Sochi!

zac510
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by zac510 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:59 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:50 pm
zac510 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:47 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm

The fact the Charlie clarified with the drivers proves it was multiple moves. However under the rules at the time what Vettel did was not strictly prohibited, and thus not punishable.
That's really terrible logic. Correlation is not causation.
read the article, he directly refers to Vettel and Hamilton on Sochi!
You're right, my apologies. I guess Whiting behaved correctly in that he followed the rules and clarifications, as they stood at the time.

Andres125sx
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:07 am

Edax wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:17 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:24 am
Edax wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 pm

I don’t want to get to get mixed in the VES VET slugfest, but I do like to respond to your first remark. I agree under the right circumstances overtaking is possible anywhere. People have done overtakes in Eau Rouge and Parabolica. But don’t you agree inside spoon it is extremely difficult?

Just, look at how you get there. You approach over a crest with the wrong side of the car loaded, the braking point itself is blind and downhill and the corner is off-camber. The racing line is extremely narrow. It is a prototypical example of the philosophy of Hugenholz, make a corner such that it tests the driver at speed and punishes them hard for not getting their line spot on (At that time they were less occupied with overtaking statistics).

Overtaking there might not be impossible but it is hard. Perhaps some have better memory than me but I cannot remember ever have seen it done this way. Overtaking when you are side by side in 200R, yes, or in the middle part of the corner combination when someone overcooked his entry, also, but from behind and on the apex, no.
If you watched the race you should know it may be difficult, but far from impossible, basically because some car passed at exactly that point in the race

But I agree it is not a standard overtaking point as spoon is narrow and difficult. But there´s a staight (it´s a corner, but flat out) from the hairpin to spoon, so the chasing car can go out of the hairpin close to the car in front, take advantage of the slipstream, and attack at spoon

Traditionally it has never been an overtaking point because corner 12 was not flat out or if it was there was no margin to loose some DF if getting too close to the car in front, so no chance to get into the slipstream of the car in front before spoon. But nowadays corner 12 is flat out easily so they can keep into the slipstream of the car in front and get to spoon really close
I could be mistaken but only overtake I can remember actually leading into Spoon was the overtake between Vettel and Grosjean. Here Grosjean, on the outside lost the car and had to leave the track. This ony reinforces my statement that Spoon is a big balls corner ( and perhaps not wide enough for four of them :wink: )

I have seen some overtakes in the braking zone for spoon ( I think RiC and VET overtook there) but here they already pulled out of the slipstream halfway the 200R and the move was basically done before entering the corner.

I am not sure you can run 2 cars next to each other there. Just look at how narrow it is (as seen from a normal lens and not the panoramic fisheyed things F1 uses)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ysD-xeuUopo
Most overtakes at any corner are actually done before the corner, at the braking zone. I know it´s a tight one, very tight, but it´s Suzuka, very tight all around. But I agree with your statement about a big balls corner as it´s a fast corner, specially the entering as it actually is a double apex corner with first quite open and second tighter. It´s also off cambered so yes, big balls are required to pass there, but still possible with current cars with loads of DF

turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:13 am

Edax wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:17 pm
I could be mistaken but only overtake I can remember actually leading into Spoon was the overtake between Vettel and Grosjean. Here Grosjean, on the outside lost the car and had to leave the track. This ony reinforces my statement that Spoon is a big balls corner ( and perhaps not wide enough for four of them :wink: )

I have seen some overtakes in the braking zone for spoon ( I think RiC and VET overtook there) but here they already pulled out of the slipstream halfway the 200R and the move was basically done before entering the corner.

I am not sure you can run 2 cars next to each other there. Just look at how narrow it is (as seen from a normal lens and not the panoramic fisheyed things F1 uses)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ysD-xeuUopo
Might I note your video shows a pre-2017 car, with a lot less downforce. Spoon last year and this year had cars going through very stable and planted. I think you can realistically get cars wheel by wheel through atleast the first apex. The extra downforce cascades further back down because turn 12 is now easily down flat out.

Again please (I BEG YOU) don't take my words as a reflection on the incident. That's not what I want. I'm just merely discussing the merit of overtaking in spoon. Nothing more.
#AeroFrodo

falonso81
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by falonso81 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:16 pm

If the Sochi incident was lap 1, would it receive the same publicity? From my understanding, this year you can do pretty much anything you want on lap 1. Hamilton drove Vettel completely off track on lap 1 at Sochi, but nobody said anything.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:18 pm

Would that be the "drove him off track on to perfectly safe, grippy tarmac whilst he was trying to go around the outside" on lap 1 at Sochi? Did Vettel moan?
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iotar__
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by iotar__ » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:35 pm

falonso81 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:16 pm
If the Sochi incident was lap 1, would it receive the same publicity? From my understanding, this year you can do pretty much anything you want on lap 1. Hamilton drove Vettel completely off track on lap 1 at Sochi, but nobody said anything.
It didn't happen unless we're talking about telekinesis. Vettel went wide because it was convinient for him, so did Leclerc against Magnussen.

Anyway, overtaking according to FIA:

- Following absurd informal clarification that defending driver can make infinite amount of waving before the braking zone which is what ~10% of the straight (or whatever), let's start with that - waving 5 times.
- then defending driver can make any number of defensive moves in the same direction as long as they are small and not very visible to the eye. They are still seperate and affect a driver behind.
- then he can make the latest possible, side/braking move
- in special circumstances and by circumstances I mean special drivers it can the the second defensive move like Baku

Now good luck with safety and overtaking, cheers - signed Charlie Whiting ;-)

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Restomaniac » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:53 am

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:48 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:39 pm
I would have to watch the replay (I haven't), but just reading and going by what you are writing, doesn't this suggest a constant movement to the inside?
It might be my explanation or how you are thinking about it, but you are just slightly off.

Think about driving down a strait 2 lane high way in the left lane. If you turn your wheel slightly to the right, and then bring it back to the neutral (strait position), the car is going in a strait line, but it's trajectory is no longer parallel to the highway, instead its at a slight angle. Thus you will end up in the right lane eventually and have to turn the wheel left to get the car back in a trajectory parallel to the highway.

Another way to think of it is as a vector diagram. by turning the wheel slight to the right and then bringing it back to the neuronal position the car has a velocity parallel to the highway, and one perpendicular to it (though very small).

the two additional right inputs Vettel made increased the cars velocity perpendicular to the track.


I see it like this.
  1. Vettel made his initial move to the right
  2. Lewis followed suit with a more substantial move, meaning he would get to the right side of the track before Vettel, thus being able to pass up the inside.
  3. Vettel realized this, and thus the two additional right inputs to ensure he got right before Lewis, so he could block him off.
Until the announcement this was legal, under a strict reading of the rules because all the movements were in the same direction. The problem is that the subsequent moments can lead to a situation where a crash is inevitable, as the trailing driver is committed and can't back out do to the speed difference and lack of down force.
Unless said following driver has the reflexes of a cat on speed!