Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
BrunoH
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by BrunoH » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:08 pm

no surprise... i think mclaren had an advantage in weight and low COG......they lost that this year and it shows in the handling...

Vortex37
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Vortex37 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:15 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Interesting comparison between the Honda and Ferrari battery posted on the Honda forum. If they do indeed both use the same Saft batteries there is an obvious difference in implementation! It could just be perspective, but the size of that Ferrari battery is staggering in comparison
Speculation. Are we looking at the difference between a Ferrari combined ERS with control unit, and the Honda which is a discrete unit?

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:23 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:26 pm
At this level I honestly think it goes a bit deeper than that. I don't think it is like "here you go, these are our cells. Here's our advice on how to use them". Ferrari will have specific requests on shape, charge and discharge, on how to integrate them with their control unit software. That requires a strong partnership, not just a supply/demand contract.
If it's a strong partnership, the depth of cooperation knows almost no limits. It could go as granular as how to best ramp up and ramp down the the charge/discharge interaction to increase cell longevity. Companies can make huge strides when they start openly sharing IP.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:30 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:23 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:26 pm
At this level I honestly think it goes a bit deeper than that. I don't think it is like "here you go, these are our cells. Here's our advice on how to use them". Ferrari will have specific requests on shape, charge and discharge, on how to integrate them with their control unit software. That requires a strong partnership, not just a supply/demand contract.
If it's a strong partnership, the depth of cooperation knows almost no limits. It could go as granular as how to best ramp up and ramp down the the charge/discharge interaction to increase cell longevity. Companies can make huge strides when they start openly sharing IP.
Fully agree there.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:12 pm

Vortex37 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:15 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Interesting comparison between the Honda and Ferrari battery posted on the Honda forum. If they do indeed both use the same Saft batteries there is an obvious difference in implementation! It could just be perspective, but the size of that Ferrari battery is staggering in comparison
Speculation. Are we looking at the difference between a Ferrari combined ERS with control unit, and the Honda which is a discrete unit?
Being supplied by the same makers of battery cells does not mean being supplied with the same specifications and shape of battery cells and neither does it mean that the ES as a unit will end up having the same configurations. People in the know said that within the rules/regulations as to weight and size a formula one battery capacity of 12mj is possible.

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:12 pm
Vortex37 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:15 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Interesting comparison between the Honda and Ferrari battery posted on the Honda forum. If they do indeed both use the same Saft batteries there is an obvious difference in implementation! It could just be perspective, but the size of that Ferrari battery is staggering in comparison
Speculation. Are we looking at the difference between a Ferrari combined ERS with control unit, and the Honda which is a discrete unit?
Being supplied by the same makers of battery cells does not mean being supplied with the same specifications and shape of battery cells and neither does it mean that the ES as a unit will end up having the same configurations. People in the know said that within the rules/regulations as to weight and size a formula one battery capacity of 12mj is possible.
Up to now the FE battery, supplied by Williams, was 100mJ weighing 200kg. With this technology 25kg of F1 battery would, as you say, be around 12MJ.

Next seasons FE battery, supplied by McLaren, will be 195mJ with “similar” weight. For some reason the FIA omit article 8 covering the ES from the published regulations so I can’t find the actual weight.

So state of the art for F1 is likely to be rather more than 12MJ.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:15 am

henry wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 pm
So state of the art for F1 is likely to be rather more than 12MJ.
"Energy density: up to 385 Wh/l and 180 Wh/kg" - Saft
So 13MJ for 20kg battery

turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by turbof1 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:38 am

sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:15 am
henry wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 pm
So state of the art for F1 is likely to be rather more than 12MJ.
"Energy density: up to 385 Wh/l and 180 Wh/kg" - Saft
So 13MJ for 20kg battery
Probably a bit less given there's mass in sensors, cables, cooling, etc. Probably more like 12MJ for a 20kg battery, which seems about right. That is enough reserve capacity to do half a season.

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:03 pm

sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:15 am
henry wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 pm
So state of the art for F1 is likely to be rather more than 12MJ.
"Energy density: up to 385 Wh/l and 180 Wh/kg" - Saft
So 13MJ for 20kg battery
A good recent article (http://www.powersourcesconference.com/P ... s/21-3.pdf) on Saft pouch type battery testing. Figure 1 shows the tradeoff between specific energy and power which may greatly effect battery performance. Of note is the last page in the article where it talks about solid state batteries. This could be (or maybe already is) technology F1 will adopt.

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:26 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:38 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:15 am
henry wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 pm
So state of the art for F1 is likely to be rather more than 12MJ.
"Energy density: up to 385 Wh/l and 180 Wh/kg" - Saft
So 13MJ for 20kg battery
Probably a bit less given there's mass in sensors, cables, cooling, etc. Probably more like 12MJ for a 20kg battery, which seems about right. That is enough reserve capacity to do half a season.
You are right but I believe rules dictate battery pack to be between 20 and 25kg.
It's hard to guess if they are at upper or lower limit.
Lower improves Cog,
upper improves ES efficiency (this would be my guess).

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:16 pm

On average a F1 Lithium ion battery pack is fully charged and discharged over 70 times during each GP. Energy flows in and out of the battery takes place in response to driver throttle and braking inputs.

godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:54 pm

You absolutely go for the upper limit, it's a no brainer. More cells means more headroom for discharge/charge rates.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:00 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:03 pm
A good recent article (http://www.powersourcesconference.com/P ... s/21-3.pdf) on Saft pouch type battery testing. Figure 1 shows the tradeoff between specific energy and power which may greatly effect battery performance. Of note is the last page in the article where it talks about solid state batteries. This could be (or maybe already is) technology F1 will adopt.
I don't know all the in's and out's of battery technology but by graphing out Figure 1 of the above pdf you can see the tradeoff the manufacturers can be faced with.

1) The chart is a bit busy, but solid lines would be battery weight of 25 kg, dashed lines is 20 kg.
2) Data points (x-axis): 1st - High Energy Cell, 2nd - Power Cell, 3rd - Very High Power Cell, 4th - Ultra High Power Cell
2) Looks like the best use scenario for the Saft battery is to use their Power Cell technology. This gives the following;
-20 kg battery can discharge 120 kW and have a total capacity of ~8.6 MJ
-25 kg battery can discharge 150 kW and have a total capacity of ~10.8 MJ
3) This has me thinking, could the suspected Ferrari dual battery have two types of cell technology. Maybe the Power Cell for the MGU-K where exactly 120 kW charge / discharge is needed, and another for the MGU-H which would be sized based on its use scenario?

Weight restrictions only take into account the cells and electrical connections), I'm not sure if Safts' figures include these extras:
5.4.3 The total weight of the part of the ES that stores energy, i.e. the cells (including any clamping plates) and electrical connections between cells, must be no less than 20kg and must not exceed 25kg.
Image

AJI
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by AJI » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:40 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:16 pm
On average a F1 Lithium ion battery pack is fully charged and discharged over 70 times during each GP...
No, it isn't...

AJI
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by AJI » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:45 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:54 pm
You absolutely go for the upper limit, it's a no brainer. More cells means more headroom for discharge/charge rates.
With only 2 ES per season I'd tend to agree. 25kg is the more likely number