Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by etusch » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:24 pm

I wonder why Honda hide clutch. Any one has any idea about it?

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by etusch » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:30 pm

TR motorsport has a news based on auto motor und sport that says Honda mercedes gap is 50 hp and Honda ahead of Renault.
According to news Horner says "Honda will bring one more big update before the new F1 season. After that we can do the remained job by our chassis"
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... r/3193441/

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm

etusch wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:24 pm
I wonder why Honda hide clutch. Any one has any idea about it?
The formula one clutch is nowadays part of the gearbox and no longer fitted to the end of the crankshaft.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:01 pm

digitalrurouni wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:21 pm
With respect to the pictures for the Ferrari vs Honda battery...how are they keeping the weight down on the Ferrari if it's a double pack?
It has been calculated by people in the know that 12mj battery capacity is possible within the FIA rules as regards weight and size.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by pipex » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 pm

Looking for information about gearbox control I found this Honda R&D article related to gearbox control from 2009:
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_26e.pdf
If you look at page 204 it shows the post shift oscillation producing when upshifting. It looks that this problem is not new, as it already appeared during the V8 era and a mitigation system was proposed. So, why this problem is so difficult to be solved now? Maybe the team that worked in the gearbox in the past is not part of Honda anymore and this problem needs to be addressed in the gearbox control design?
"We will have to wait and see".

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:21 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:50 pm
Well actually it's not that hard, numerical solutions for torsional vibration in reciprocating engines and drivelines have been around since 1920s and have since evolved to the extent that they can capture any relevant behaviour with near perfect accuracy.

Also tire loads are not really relevant since the torsional stiffness of the tire is very low compared to that of the driveline.
Well, actually it's not that near perfect as you purport it to be. There's nothing like simulating dynamic loads than on track testing. Also no point in bringing up McLarens operations as they were unfit to provide Honda a team environment let alone a decent gearbox in time. Imagine if Honda was still inside the Mcl33. It would have been a proper disaster and McLaren would have hidden behind the engine and Honda would be wrongfully the laughing stock.
So enough of this misinformation about Honda not being able to do this or that, seriously.
As I've explained but you seem to have missed the point is that the low tire stiffness decouples the rest of the driveline from whatever happens at the contact patch. The tire is a very effective torsional AV mount and as such for all practical purposes whatever happens at the contact patch has no effect on the torsional vibration of the driveline.

I missed the bits in the press about Honda being able to run dynos with a gearbox - if that is the case they should have all the tools required to diagnose and fix driveline oscillations.
How much TQ does it make though?

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:39 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm

The formula one clutch is nowadays part of the gearbox and no longer fitted to the end of the crankshaft.
Uhm evidence seems to suggest the exact opposite. Merc pics clearly show the clutch basket on the crank while the shape of the Honda cover seems to also hide a clutch mounted on the crank.

F1 NA engines had the clutch within the gearbox to raise the natural frequency of the crank - this is no longer required in current engines since the excitation frequency is lower.


pipex wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 pm
Looking for information about gearbox control I found this Honda R&D article related to gearbox control from 2009:
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_26e.pdf
If you look at page 204 it shows the post shift oscillation producing when upshifting. It looks that this problem is not new, as it already appeared during the V8 era and a mitigation system was proposed. So, why this problem is so difficult to be solved now? Maybe the team that worked in the gearbox in the past is not part of Honda anymore and this problem needs to be addressed in the gearbox control design?
The problem can be solved in multiple ways (relaxing the clutch, increasing shift time, spark, etc) - however most of them involve losing performance.

Remember last year when Merc got very greedy with aggressive shift times and had to take gearbox penalties early.

+1 for the paper - can't believe I did not have it!
How much TQ does it make though?

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:21 am

Snagged this from youtube (https://youtu.be/HJ3EIbhwx2w?t=83), Its a Merc in the Honda forum I know! #-o ;

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ringo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ringo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:17 am

I think it may be possible to mount the turbo lower if the clutch is moved into the gearbox and the turbine lowered closer to engine's output shaft. :)
If the turbine shaft isn't at the lowest point limited by the rules, i can imagine that the clutch is the limiting factor in the turbines height.
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Maritimer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Maritimer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:24 am

ringo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:17 am
I think it may be possible to mount the turbo lower if the clutch is moved into the gearbox and the turbine lowered closer to engine's output shaft. :)
If the turbine shaft isn't at the lowest point limited by the rules, i can imagine that the clutch is the limiting factor in the turbines height.
The motor is probably the limiting factor for how low the turbo can be placed.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:16 am

I wonder what kind of release bearing they use for the clutch. I'm guessing it's likely a hydraulic, what's not obvious is whether it's a push or pull type.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:32 am

Maritimer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:24 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:17 am
I think it may be possible to mount the turbo lower if the clutch is moved into the gearbox and the turbine lowered closer to engine's output shaft. :)
If the turbine shaft isn't at the lowest point limited by the rules, i can imagine that the clutch is the limiting factor in the turbines height.
The motor is probably the limiting factor for how low the turbo can be placed.
The MGU-H is the main limiting factor + min weight and COG are specified in the rules. MGU-H is min 4kg + the rest of the turbo is probably another ~10kg for the turbine wastegates/actuators etc, another ~6kg for the compressor, so that's 20kg affecting COG you have to account for. IE the lighter you make them the more you limit how low you can place them.

Maybe there's some strategic benefit to making certain parts heavier if it means being able to lower them a bit, or vise versa. Maybe making something lighter and having to raise it a bit can lead to a net gain by opening space somewhere else.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:07 am

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:16 am
I wonder what kind of release bearing they use for the clutch. I'm guessing it's likely a hydraulic, what's not obvious is whether it's a push or pull type.

http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/found ... quality=85

https://racecarsdirect.com/content/User ... 10.jpg?v=1
for a long time now pull type pressure plate spring have been in use in FI. When they were using clutch mounted in gearbox they eliminated the pull loading on crankshaft end-float thrust.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:35 am

The pressure plate pull type spring on Sachs 95mm diameter clutch of 2008 had a spring loading on the friction plates of 1.6 tons.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:06 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:35 am
The pressure plate pull type spring on Sachs 95mm diameter clutch of 2008 had a spring loading on the friction plates of 1.6 tons.
That's on par with a lot of twin plate clutches. But sounds about right for 800ish hp.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee