2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Squid
39
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Squid » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:55 am
Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:08 am
Vettel needs a team that he can trust, so he can stop trying to run the team from the cockpit.

People that say that Vettel can't fight in a non-dominant car apparently haven't seen 2010 or 2012. Two years where Vettel had a great, but far from dominant car, and yet he stood up to the pressure and won the championship both years.

Should he be so sensitive to team operations? No, he shouldn't. Should Ferrari's operation improve? Yes it should. Will improving Ferrari's operation improve Vettel's performance? Definitely. I mean, look at what happened recently. It took them 4 races to figure out that the upgrades they made on the car were making it slower. That's the sort of thing that has been destroying Vettel's confidence in Ferrari over the year. He takes risks because he feels he has to compensate for it.
So all the crashes and mistakes from Vettel's side is due to failure of ferrari team's operation?
Mistakes like that don't just happen. Not in the frequency that they're happening, and not for no reason.
Here's a very good piece by Mark Hughes which explains my point better than I can. In summary, Vettel tries to compensate for the team's shortcomings himself, which leads to a lack of focus and overdriving. Still, please read the article, it's very detailed.

siskue2005
119
User avatar
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by siskue2005 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:55 pm

Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:55 am
Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:08 am
Vettel needs a team that he can trust, so he can stop trying to run the team from the cockpit.

People that say that Vettel can't fight in a non-dominant car apparently haven't seen 2010 or 2012. Two years where Vettel had a great, but far from dominant car, and yet he stood up to the pressure and won the championship both years.

Should he be so sensitive to team operations? No, he shouldn't. Should Ferrari's operation improve? Yes it should. Will improving Ferrari's operation improve Vettel's performance? Definitely. I mean, look at what happened recently. It took them 4 races to figure out that the upgrades they made on the car were making it slower. That's the sort of thing that has been destroying Vettel's confidence in Ferrari over the year. He takes risks because he feels he has to compensate for it.
So all the crashes and mistakes from Vettel's side is due to failure of ferrari team's operation?
Mistakes like that don't just happen. Not in the frequency that they're happening, and not for no reason.
Here's a very good piece by Mark Hughes which explains my point better than I can. In summary, Vettel tries to compensate for the team's shortcomings himself, which leads to a lack of focus and overdriving. Still, please read the article, it's very detailed.
Mark hughes saying "share blame" not putting the entire blame like u mentioned before.

Vettel made mistakes when they had the best car in the field.... only from singapore did they went backwards...Vettel started to make mistakes long before that, from Baku, France, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Monza..... Japan and USA i can agree he had been psychological defeated by that time when he made the mistake.....but i dont see how the ferrari's operation made him Lock up brakes in Baku, Hit Bottas in France, Become blind in Austria qualy, Crash from lead in Germany, Failed to qualify first hungary with the faster car and Lost the pole in Monza & hit Lewis at the start?
Only from Singapore did Ferrari lose their advantage, why was he overcompensating for their shortcoming before that race? they had the best car from the start of the season till monza (except for France, Spain, GB - thin tyres track).... so where did ferrari fell short of for him to overcompensate and make mistakes in the first 14 races (in which they had the best or equally fast car in 10 races)....and yet he was 30 points behind after Monza

There might be internal operation problems at Ferrari, but i dont agree it is entirely ferrari's fault Vettel lost the championship with a faster car in most races.

timbo
96
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by timbo » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:00 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:55 pm
Vettel made mistakes when they had the best car in the field.... only from singapore did they went backwards...Vettel started to make mistakes long before that, from Baku, France, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Monza..... Japan and USA i can agree he had been psychological defeated by that time when he made the mistake.....but i dont see how the ferrari's operation made him Lock up brakes in Baku, Hit Bottas in France, Become blind in Austria qualy, Crash from lead in Germany, Failed to qualify first hungary with the faster car and Lost the pole in Monza & hit Lewis at the start?
Only from Singapore did Ferrari lose their advantage, why was he overcompensating for their shortcoming before that race? they had the best car from the start of the season till monza (except for France, Spain, GB - thin tyres track).... so where did ferrari fell short of for him to overcompensate and make mistakes in the first 14 races (in which they had the best or equally fast car in 10 races)....and yet he was 30 points behind after Monza
OK, I made a post somewhere back in this thread where I made much the same points I will do now, but anyway.
So, what did Vettel know coming into the championship? From what we've seen he probably knew the car had potential but Mercedes were ahead. After Australian Qualifying, it was that Mercedes were MILES ahead at least on Q pace. He grabbed that win and then the next one. In China Ferrari messed strategy and he was hit by Verstappen. He lost some valuable points. Now he comes into Baku and Ferrari again makes mistake in strategy, putting him behind Bottas.
Overtaking is as hard as ever this year and you can gain most places on starts and restarts. So he used his chance.
France was not a race where Ferrari had the best car. He made a good start and almost got Bottas using the best opportunity to make up positions, and yeah it went bad.

His error in Austria makes me wonder again on what his race engineer was doing (same as in the red flag situation).
Also, Austria was a clear case for the difference in the approaches between Mercedes and Ferrari.

So the pace of the car fluctuates. The team does make mistakes on strategy (every team does, sure but the price is different). Also, taking three GPs to figure out updates weren't going anywhere seems a bit too much, isn't it? Because of this, I have a suspicion that maybe the team can not predict very well where they would be on the pace going into the GP.

IMO these are not the conditions where you can manage to stay calm.

A great campaign of Fernando Alonso in 2012 was different. That year all the teams struggled to some extent and there were many drivers competing for the championship taking points off each other. A calm and consistent approach was really working.

But this will not work if you are in the fight with a consistent team with a clear number one driver (admittedly not from the start of the year). If you have to beat them you have to overtake them, how can you do this when your own team makes mistakes and your car is not consistently quick? You have to take risks. Yeah, it seems Vettel is not the best person for this. But I'm not sure anyone really is.

Squid
39
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Squid » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:40 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:55 pm
Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:55 am


So all the crashes and mistakes from Vettel's side is due to failure of ferrari team's operation?
Mistakes like that don't just happen. Not in the frequency that they're happening, and not for no reason.
Here's a very good piece by Mark Hughes which explains my point better than I can. In summary, Vettel tries to compensate for the team's shortcomings himself, which leads to a lack of focus and overdriving. Still, please read the article, it's very detailed.
Mark hughes saying "share blame" not putting the entire blame like u mentioned before.

Vettel made mistakes when they had the best car in the field.... only from singapore did they went backwards...Vettel started to make mistakes long before that, from Baku, France, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Monza..... Japan and USA i can agree he had been psychological defeated by that time when he made the mistake.....but i dont see how the ferrari's operation made him Lock up brakes in Baku, Hit Bottas in France, Become blind in Austria qualy, Crash from lead in Germany, Failed to qualify first hungary with the faster car and Lost the pole in Monza & hit Lewis at the start?
Only from Singapore did Ferrari lose their advantage, why was he overcompensating for their shortcoming before that race? they had the best car from the start of the season till monza (except for France, Spain, GB - thin tyres track).... so where did ferrari fell short of for him to overcompensate and make mistakes in the first 14 races (in which they had the best or equally fast car in 10 races)....and yet he was 30 points behind after Monza

There might be internal operation problems at Ferrari, but i dont agree it is entirely ferrari's fault Vettel lost the championship with a faster car in most races.
I'm sorry but I never, in anything I wrote, put 100% of the blame on Ferrari. In fact, I put it quite plainly that Vettel shares part of the blame by letting the team's operation interfere with his driving. Vettel deserves criticism for it.

You're talking a lot about car performance, but this isn't all about car performance. For example, since you mention Germany, which is considered to be Vettel's worse mistake, it was indeed helped along by Ferrari messing up. When Ferrari pit Vettel, they exited him behind Kimi. Vettel came on the radio several times saying that he was stuck behind Kimi and eating up his tyres. Ferrari took several laps to intervene and tell Kimi to let Vettel go. When the conditions changed, Hamilton had the better tyres and was closing the gap by over 2 seconds per lap. When Vettel tried to push a bit more to keep Hamilton at bay, he didn't have the grip to stay on the track.

France... I have no idea why people keep pointing to France as an exemple of a serious mistake by Vettel. He had a great start but got boxed in by the Mercedes and forced into Hamilton's slipstream. When the turn came, he braked early but without the front downforce he still carried too much speed into the corner. When Bottas cut in front of him to take the position, contact was inevitable. There was very little that Vettel could have done in that situation.

Monza, Ferrari completely screwed up qualifying. They seemed lost in how to deal with Kimi. Once you have a driver in the championship, you need to put your full support behind him. Ferrari failed to do that. They gave Kimi the tow and messed up Vettel's exit. Vettel was supposed to get a tow from Hamilton, but Ferrari took too long to let him out and Sainz got between him and Hamilton. You could tell that Vettel was pissed off by his "we talk after" radio message. At the race, Vettel went for a move but Kimi defended hard, something Vettel wasn't expecting. This gave Hamilton a chance to get to the outside of the chicane entry and the inside for the exit, which eventually led to the contact. Letting teammates race is absolutely stupid when one of them is in the title fight and the other is not.

Hungary was a mixed bag. While Vettel's qualy lap was bad, the Mercedes works better in the corners as we saw in recent races.

Baku and Austria, no arguments there. Although Baku looks worse in hindsight because of what happened to Bottas.

Fulcrum
97
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:05 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Fulcrum » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:09 pm

f1universe wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:35 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:46 pm
So what "other things" do people think Vettel is refering to?

https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/21/vet ... tle-fight/
ettel admitted his difficulties in recent races went beyond the race track. “For many reasons, results and racing is part of the game but there are other things that have maybe been a bit different to the past but nothing that I think we can’t overcome.”
Aero updates not working, Internal power struggle, Kimi leaving for a junior driver who will be a lot less compliant, all of the above?

It seems he is having personal problems, if he is talking about something inside the team, clearly the problem is things are not going his way, like getting rid of Kimi and so on.
To me, the most obvious evidence of something being wrong was the fact Ferrari did not order a switch in position between Raikkonen and Vettel in Japan.

Raikkonen really wouldn't have given a damn about a couple of points this late in the season, especially given he wouldn't have been sacrificing a podium or win.

Teams that are thinking and pulling in the same direction would have made this decision, even if the likelihood of it affecting the championship was negligible.

From the outside looking in, it gives the impression that Ferrari didn't see the point - and that's a bad reading for their faith in Vettel going forward.

The Leclerc move, coupled with Vettel's current trajectory of self-sabotage and Marchionne's death, make me think 2019 is make or break at Ferrari.

erikejw
5
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by erikejw » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:49 pm

I think they promoted Leclerc one year too early.
He's superquick in qualy, he's supertalented but lacks in racecraft and judgement.

He'd need at least another year preparing for a Ferrari seat, they have zero patience and the pressure will be enormous.

He's had 5 dnfs out of the last 9 races, probably about the time he knew he'll have a Ferrari drive next year. I have not looked into the reasons, most likely not his fault at many occasions but he needs more margins, play the percentage game, finish races.

His qualy is 10 times his race craft in 2018.

He'll perform with high peaks and large valleys so the wcc is most likely done for Ferrari.


Kimi is a superior choice for many reasons.
He's old and not a future bet, thays the only drawback.

Stability, apolitical etc.

The Ferrari is slower on average compared to Mercedes. Mercedes took 2 poles out of 7 in the beginning. Then they have 9 out of 11, very superior, sometimes with huge margins.

Up until Monza, before Kimi was sacked it is 14 races, he had 3 dnfs, 2 mechanical and a missed tyre in a ps.

In those 11 races he took 9 podiums, that is his job, get infront of any of the opponents and RB, not winning races.

He has beaten Bottas in a worse car, Vettel is 70 points behind Lewis. Kimi would be 10 points(his average points in non dnf races) behind Vettel if he did not have the team related dnfs.

He's 10 points behind Vettel that is favoured(as he should be, he's lead driver) in pit stops, strategy, car development direction, blocking opponents etc.

Kimi has a flawless season, never gets involved in accidents. He's the perfect nr2 driver, especially in Ferrari and the highly pressured environment.

PhillipM
183
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by PhillipM » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:13 am

Kimi would have had more points than Vettel if not for the team decisions and reliability this year tbfh.

Juzh
222
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Juzh » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:09 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:13 am
Kimi would have had more points than Vettel if not for the team decisions and reliability this year tbfh.
let's hear it

Fulcrum
97
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:05 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Fulcrum » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:51 am

That's a little bit optimistic I think.

Raikkonen retired in Bahrain, Spain and Belgium; none of these retirements were self-inflicted. If he'd finished without issue, I think he could have collected 37 points; namely, 3rd in Belgium, 4th in Bahrain, 5th in Spain.

That would put Raikkonen on 273 points relative to Vettel's 294, still 21 points adrift.

Even if I look hard for those additional 21 points, I don't really find them.

- Austria; he should have won this race. The Verstappen pass on lap 1 ultimately decided the race outcome. (+7)
- Canada; a lacklustre performance by Raikkonen, finishing almost 30 seconds down on Vettel in 6th (Vettel won). Could easily have been 4th. (+4)
- Monaco; not the best qualifying session, relegated him to 4th place; probably should have been 3rd. (+3)
- Singapore; bad qualifying, stuck behind Bottas all race. (+2)
- Monza; with better team management (with respect to how to use his tyres) MAYBE he could have won. (+7)

Only Austria sticks out as being a clear error influencing race outcome; the rest are highly speculative.

I think the gap to Vettel (58 points) is probably a fair reflection of the year's proceedings.

Vasconia
38
User avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 am
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Vasconia » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 am

Good weekend for the team. There is still a room to achieve the championship for the team if they keep with this level.

timbo
96
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by timbo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:07 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 am
Good weekend for the team. There is still a room to achieve the championship for the team if they keep with this level.
I would prefer them to test all out in the remaining two races to try to understand what went wrong with the updates.

siskue2005
119
User avatar
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by siskue2005 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:14 pm

Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:40 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:55 pm
Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 pm


Mistakes like that don't just happen. Not in the frequency that they're happening, and not for no reason.
Here's a very good piece by Mark Hughes which explains my point better than I can. In summary, Vettel tries to compensate for the team's shortcomings himself, which leads to a lack of focus and overdriving. Still, please read the article, it's very detailed.
Mark hughes saying "share blame" not putting the entire blame like u mentioned before.

Vettel made mistakes when they had the best car in the field.... only from singapore did they went backwards...Vettel started to make mistakes long before that, from Baku, France, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Monza..... Japan and USA i can agree he had been psychological defeated by that time when he made the mistake.....but i dont see how the ferrari's operation made him Lock up brakes in Baku, Hit Bottas in France, Become blind in Austria qualy, Crash from lead in Germany, Failed to qualify first hungary with the faster car and Lost the pole in Monza & hit Lewis at the start?
Only from Singapore did Ferrari lose their advantage, why was he overcompensating for their shortcoming before that race? they had the best car from the start of the season till monza (except for France, Spain, GB - thin tyres track).... so where did ferrari fell short of for him to overcompensate and make mistakes in the first 14 races (in which they had the best or equally fast car in 10 races)....and yet he was 30 points behind after Monza

There might be internal operation problems at Ferrari, but i dont agree it is entirely ferrari's fault Vettel lost the championship with a faster car in most races.
I'm sorry but I never, in anything I wrote, put 100% of the blame on Ferrari. In fact, I put it quite plainly that Vettel shares part of the blame by letting the team's operation interfere with his driving. Vettel deserves criticism for it.
Again you are only blaming Ferrari for the entire issue

Vasconia
38
User avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 am
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Vasconia » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:12 pm

timbo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:07 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 am
Good weekend for the team. There is still a room to achieve the championship for the team if they keep with this level.
I would prefer them to test all out in the remaining two races to try to understand what went wrong with the updates.
They can spend some time with it. I am sure they are also doing someting with the updates planned for 2019.

Squid
39
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Squid » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:47 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:14 pm
Squid wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:40 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:55 pm


Mark hughes saying "share blame" not putting the entire blame like u mentioned before.

Vettel made mistakes when they had the best car in the field.... only from singapore did they went backwards...Vettel started to make mistakes long before that, from Baku, France, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Monza..... Japan and USA i can agree he had been psychological defeated by that time when he made the mistake.....but i dont see how the ferrari's operation made him Lock up brakes in Baku, Hit Bottas in France, Become blind in Austria qualy, Crash from lead in Germany, Failed to qualify first hungary with the faster car and Lost the pole in Monza & hit Lewis at the start?
Only from Singapore did Ferrari lose their advantage, why was he overcompensating for their shortcoming before that race? they had the best car from the start of the season till monza (except for France, Spain, GB - thin tyres track).... so where did ferrari fell short of for him to overcompensate and make mistakes in the first 14 races (in which they had the best or equally fast car in 10 races)....and yet he was 30 points behind after Monza

There might be internal operation problems at Ferrari, but i dont agree it is entirely ferrari's fault Vettel lost the championship with a faster car in most races.
I'm sorry but I never, in anything I wrote, put 100% of the blame on Ferrari. In fact, I put it quite plainly that Vettel shares part of the blame by letting the team's operation interfere with his driving. Vettel deserves criticism for it.
Again you are only blaming Ferrari for the entire issue
Alright, let me put this in a way where there is no way to misinterpret what I'm saying:

Vettel can't handle adversity. That's his problem. His alone. If Vettel didn't lose focus when things don't go his way, he wouldn't make nearly as many mistakes, regardless of how many mistakes Ferrari does. Things don't always go right, and it's extremely important that the driver makes the best out of these situations. Instead, Vettel is making it worse.

Better now?

MtthsMlw
353
User avatar
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by MtthsMlw » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:55 pm

Image