Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm

dren wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:06 pm
etusch wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:37 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:32 pm
A Honda engineer was quoted (not a journalist forming an opinion) about the use of a pre-chamber in the 2017 PU. He said it was difficult to balance the A/F ratio in the pre-chamber and the main chamber with the injector spray and air flow. He said you cannot get away from using pre-chamber ignition in the current PU formula when you want to raise combustion efficiency.

Perhaps the pre-chamber is part of the piston crown and open to air/fuel up until TDC when it encapsulates the top protruding spark plug?

My fancy paint skills:
https://image.ibb.co/e7MDFA/pre.png
Isn't that too late for ignition?
It wouldn't necessarily have to be at TDC. The pre-chamber piston can start to seal into the spark plug shroud before TDC.
combustion that starts at one place and continues at another place such as a pre-chamber system is in my opinion not conductive to a 10500 RPM max power speed system of operation.

aral
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by aral » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 pm

OK, a lot of this is way above me, however, SS, dont get hung up on the 10500 rpm as being max rpm. You will see for instance that during a race, the Merc is getting up to 12000 rpm. I am not sure if this spoils your calculations, but certainly 10500 rpm is no longer a maximum in use.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:25 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:44 am
Somebody said-it/wrote-it, a lot read-it, some believed-it, still to this day some are still parroting-it.
You of all people accusing forum members of parroting or fommenting is quite funny. :wtf:

Any luck finding that 'direct injection' rule you referenced yesterday?
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

Dr. Acula
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:49 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm
combustion that starts at one place and continues at another place such as a pre-chamber system is in my opinion not conductive to a 10500 RPM max power speed system of operation.
Sorry, but that's what generally happens if you have spark ignition anyway. It's not that the whole mixture inside the combustion chamber would ignite in an instant when the spark plug fires, regardless of the design of the combustion chamber. The flame travels away from the spark plug through the entire combustion chamber once ignition has happend. And we saw engines with a conventional system doing 20'000rpm just about a decade ago. Flame propagation speed is higly dependend on the stoichiometric ratio, the pressure inside the combustion chamber pre ignition, the fuel itself and if the flame propagation happens laminar or turbulent.
The last point has actually the highest impact by far and can change the flame propagation speed by more than 3 orders of magnitude compared to a strictly laminar flame propagation, although torwards the higher orders of magnitude you would start to call it an explosion.
Also Mahle wrote about their TJI design, it would actually accelerate the combustion. Which in my opinion makes sense. Because to put it simply, it's like trying to ignite the main chamber with a tiny little spark which is known to not work very well if you try to lean out the mixture to much or to try the same with some kind of flame thrower. Which one would you think will have the faster combustion of the main chamber overall. That's regardless if you think TJI is used in F1 or not. But to say that TJI isn't suitable for high rpm applications is BS in my opinion.
Mahle wrote:With 4-8 ignition jets, depending on the application, the main charge is extensively ignited and a faster burn-through and pressure build-up is generated.

tcooper27
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by tcooper27 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:53 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:38 pm
dren wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:04 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:44 am
Somebody said-it/wrote-it, a lot read-it, some believed-it, still to this day some are still parroting-it.
So, what is your theory on the combustion process Honda is using?
My theory= a supposition of a system of ideas based on general principles, cannot be any more and cannot be any less. as long as what is being used by the respective four is such a highly guarded secret. maybe when time passes and this present combustion development is Superseded by a more advanced development we will get not only to know but also see with our own eyes like what happened with the “write-up” permission of the FERRARI 2000 winning car publication, the first of its kind in such a secretive technical matters.
So you have no theory that you think is good enough to contribute but you're 100% sure they're not using TJI because a third party translator doesn't know anything about a specific engineer at Honda? :roll:

Do you have any experience in prototype engine development or advanced combustion technologies to back up your claims? Any real evidence that they're using something other than what they're publishing? Any reason to believe Honda is lying to all of us through these publications? Anything at all?

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:42 pm

tcooper27 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:53 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:38 pm
dren wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:04 pm


So, what is your theory on the combustion process Honda is using?
My theory= a supposition of a system of ideas based on general principles, cannot be any more and cannot be any less. as long as what is being used by the respective four is such a highly guarded secret. maybe when time passes and this present combustion development is Superseded by a more advanced development we will get not only to know but also see with our own eyes like what happened with the “write-up” permission of the FERRARI 2000 winning car publication, the first of its kind in such a secretive technical matters.
So you have no theory that you think is good enough to contribute but you're 100% sure they're not using TJI because a third party translator doesn't know anything about a specific engineer at Honda? :roll:

Do you have any experience in prototype engine development or advanced combustion technologies to back up your claims? Any real evidence that they're using something other than what they're publishing? Any reason to believe Honda is lying to all of us through these publications? Anything at all?
TJI as used by Mahle with the injector and spark plug in one housing isn't being used, HCCI isn't being used. Those are his only claims, which don't require much to verify. Now whether his claim that a diesel style pre-chamber isn't being used, probably not too far out there. There's plenty of ways to skin a cat(ie improve the speed and power of combustion), fuel chemistry being a biggie.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:49 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:48 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:53 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:26 am

....

None, our descriptions are in agreement in how flame jet ignition, and combustion in general work. It's more than just spark flame, heat. There's thousands of steps involving radicals formed at the spark gap, which create further radicals, and as these radicals interact with the hydrocarbons, new bonds are formed, which release heat, and some are broken which absorbs heat. During the combustion process, partially unburned hydrocarbons further release free radicals which again create and break bonds in the A/F mixture. Understanding and modeling these radicals are key to making improvements to both fuel and the combustion process itself.

Elemental nitrogen is a radical by the way, and the fact that these engines have high combustion temperatures and they produce plenty of NOx, perhaps the process makes use of elemental nitrogen to some extent.
No doubt the actual combustion processes are very complex. But surely in a discussion of TJI that’s not the key issue.

In a TJI solution there is a small chamber in which combustion is initiated by a spark and then the combustion products are ejected in a controlled manner into a larger chamber where those combustion products cause ignition. The process is spark, burn, eject, burn.

In your post above you seem to agree with this characterisation and show a shrouded plug, with a small chamber and ejection holes.

Whilst it is obviously important that the actual chemistry supports this, and there are almost certainly some specifics that are beneficial to the differing fuel-air ratios in the two chambers, as far as I can see the chief difference for a TJI concept is how the spark chamber is formed and how the air movements and injection patterns form the two environments in which the combustion processes operate.

The alternative to TJI is that the differing fuel-air ratios are generated within the space of the combustion chamber by some form of stratification. It seems unlikely that at the extreme air-fuel ratios used reliable ignition could happen in a homogenous charge.
Possibilities that "differing fuel-air ratios are generated within the space of the combustion chamber" I personally believe that there is very little possibility if any of therec being 'differing fuel-air ratios' inside a formula 1 engine cylinder when as i belive the fuel is being injected at a pressure of 500bar and at least 60 degrees BTDC and before being fully compressed.
60 degrees? That's an insane amount of crank angle before the combustion event. Most road cars top out at 30 degrees BTDC for ignition timing.

If there is such a huge window to inject fuel, then it logically follows that stratification is altered by multiple injection pulses during the compression stroke.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:58 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:48 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:53 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:26 am

....

None, our descriptions are in agreement in how flame jet ignition, and combustion in general work. It's more than just spark flame, heat. There's thousands of steps involving radicals formed at the spark gap, which create further radicals, and as these radicals interact with the hydrocarbons, new bonds are formed, which release heat, and some are broken which absorbs heat. During the combustion process, partially unburned hydrocarbons further release free radicals which again create and break bonds in the A/F mixture. Understanding and modeling these radicals are key to making improvements to both fuel and the combustion process itself.

Elemental nitrogen is a radical by the way, and the fact that these engines have high combustion temperatures and they produce plenty of NOx, perhaps the process makes use of elemental nitrogen to some extent.
No doubt the actual combustion processes are very complex. But surely in a discussion of TJI that’s not the key issue.

In a TJI solution there is a small chamber in which combustion is initiated by a spark and then the combustion products are ejected in a controlled manner into a larger chamber where those combustion products cause ignition. The process is spark, burn, eject, burn.

In your post above you seem to agree with this characterisation and show a shrouded plug, with a small chamber and ejection holes.

Whilst it is obviously important that the actual chemistry supports this, and there are almost certainly some specifics that are beneficial to the differing fuel-air ratios in the two chambers, as far as I can see the chief difference for a TJI concept is how the spark chamber is formed and how the air movements and injection patterns form the two environments in which the combustion processes operate.

The alternative to TJI is that the differing fuel-air ratios are generated within the space of the combustion chamber by some form of stratification. It seems unlikely that at the extreme air-fuel ratios used reliable ignition could happen in a homogenous charge.
Possibilities that "differing fuel-air ratios are generated within the space of the combustion chamber" I personally believe that there is very little possibility if any of therec being 'differing fuel-air ratios' inside a formula 1 engine cylinder when as i belive the fuel is being injected at a pressure of 500bar and at least 60 degrees BTDC and before being fully compressed.
So you think that there is a homogenous fuel-air mixture in the combustion chamber and it is ignited by a single spark plug, and runs at 45% BTE.

With TJI the differing fuel-air ratios are in two physically separate parts of the combustion chamber. One is very much smaller than the other. Obviously getting these right with a single injector is tricky. However:

There is nothing in the regulations that requires a single injection event. Peak pressure before combustion is, I guess, less than 100 bar. So an injector at 500 bar would be able to inject at any point in the compression cycle, and multiple points to help generate differing fuel-air mixtures.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:08 pm

aral wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 pm
OK, a lot of this is way above me, however, SS, dont get hung up on the 10500 rpm as being max rpm. You will see for instance that during a race, the Merc is getting up to 12000 rpm. I am not sure if this spoils your calculations, but certainly 10500 rpm is no longer a maximum in use.
"Combustion that starts at one place and continue at another place as a pre-chamber system is in my opinion not conductive to a 10500 rpm MAX POWER SPEED system of operation".
I have no doubt whatsoever that up-shift gear change takes place above 'max power speed rpm ', that was always the way to go racing and not lose speed. during the NA engines formula the max RPM was always 500 RPM above what is called the LOVELL factor point (max power speed). On todays forced induction engine the RPM band above the max-power-speed-RPM used is most probably X 3 times that used on an NA engine. But be assured that in both types of engines no more additional power can be produced above their respective max-power-speed-RPM.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:44 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:49 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:48 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:53 am


No doubt the actual combustion processes are very complex. But surely in a discussion of TJI that’s not the key issue.

In a TJI solution there is a small chamber in which combustion is initiated by a spark and then the combustion products are ejected in a controlled manner into a larger chamber where those combustion products cause ignition. The process is spark, burn, eject, burn.

In your post above you seem to agree with this characterisation and show a shrouded plug, with a small chamber and ejection holes.

Whilst it is obviously important that the actual chemistry supports this, and there are almost certainly some specifics that are beneficial to the differing fuel-air ratios in the two chambers, as far as I can see the chief difference for a TJI concept is how the spark chamber is formed and how the air movements and injection patterns form the two environments in which the combustion processes operate.

The alternative to TJI is that the differing fuel-air ratios are generated within the space of the combustion chamber by some form of stratification. It seems unlikely that at the extreme air-fuel ratios used reliable ignition could happen in a homogenous charge.
Possibilities that "differing fuel-air ratios are generated within the space of the combustion chamber" I personally believe that there is very little possibility if any of therec being 'differing fuel-air ratios' inside a formula 1 engine cylinder when as i belive the fuel is being injected at a pressure of 500bar and at least 60 degrees BTDC and before being fully compressed.
60 degrees? That's an insane amount of crank angle before the combustion event. Most road cars top out at 30 degrees BTDC for ignition timing.

If there is such a huge window to inject fuel, then it logically follows that stratification is altered by multiple injection pulses during the compression stroke.
It is my personal opinion that fuel is injected directly at least 60 degrees BTDC before being fully compressed, fully agree that most road-cars tops out at 30 degrees BTDC for ignition timing advance, most probably it is very much the same gnition timing advance used in F1 engines.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:16 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:08 pm
aral wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 pm
OK, a lot of this is way above me, however, SS, dont get hung up on the 10500 rpm as being max rpm. You will see for instance that during a race, the Merc is getting up to 12000 rpm. I am not sure if this spoils your calculations, but certainly 10500 rpm is no longer a maximum in use.
"Combustion that starts at one place and continue at another place as a pre-chamber system is in my opinion not conductive to a 10500 rpm MAX POWER SPEED system of operation".
I have no doubt whatsoever that up-shift gear change takes place above 'max power speed rpm ', that was always the way to go racing and not lose speed. during the NA engines formula the max RPM was always 500 RPM above what is called the LOVELL factor point (max power speed). On todays forced induction engine the RPM band above the max-power-speed-RPM used is most probably X 3 times that used on an NA engine. But be assured that in both types of engines no more additional power can be produced above their respective max-power-speed-RPM.
However that max power speed is unlikely to be 10500 but roughly half way between that and max RPM. around 11200 RPM.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:55 pm

Q: You mentioned the upgraded Honda engine there. How much of an improvement is that? Is it something you can actually feel in the cockpit?
BH: It’s a tricky one to answer because these Formula One cars are very light and you have close to 1,000hp.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... ieoQs.html
I believe that Mercedes and Ferrari have already broken the barrier of 1000hp.. (personal opinion)

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:19 pm

tcooper27 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:53 pm
So you have no theory that you think is good enough to contribute but you're 100% sure they're not using TJI because a third party translator doesn't know anything about a specific engineer at Honda? :roll:
There may be some confusion, or a coincidence, as hasika is a forum member here who did some of the early translations of the article. I don't believe he ever claimed to be a honda engineer.
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Craigy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:06 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:16 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:08 pm
aral wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 pm
OK, a lot of this is way above me, however, SS, dont get hung up on the 10500 rpm as being max rpm. You will see for instance that during a race, the Merc is getting up to 12000 rpm. I am not sure if this spoils your calculations, but certainly 10500 rpm is no longer a maximum in use.
"Combustion that starts at one place and continue at another place as a pre-chamber system is in my opinion not conductive to a 10500 rpm MAX POWER SPEED system of operation".
I have no doubt whatsoever that up-shift gear change takes place above 'max power speed rpm ', that was always the way to go racing and not lose speed. during the NA engines formula the max RPM was always 500 RPM above what is called the LOVELL factor point (max power speed). On todays forced induction engine the RPM band above the max-power-speed-RPM used is most probably X 3 times that used on an NA engine. But be assured that in both types of engines no more additional power can be produced above their respective max-power-speed-RPM.
However that max power speed is unlikely to be 10500 but roughly half way between that and max RPM. around 11200 RPM.
For the record, max RPM on the Merc last year was circa 13K. (obviously the regs state 15K, but that's not where the limiters are...)

Force India routinely ran higher RPM than seemed sensible; possibly either they got some sums wrong, or more likely they had compromised their gear selection toward tracks I wasn't looking at their revs at, so I was looking at the worst case. I miss the old pre-halo graphics.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:58 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm
dren wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:06 pm
etusch wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:37 pm


Isn't that too late for ignition?
It wouldn't necessarily have to be at TDC. The pre-chamber piston can start to seal into the spark plug shroud before TDC.
combustion that starts at one place and continues at another place such as a pre-chamber system is in my opinion not conductive to a 10500 RPM max power speed system of operation.
How do you then justify the use of passive pre chamber spark plugs in 1500 RPM natural gas engines ?
How much TQ does it make though?