Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:22 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:45 pm
hurril wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:04 am
henry wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:37 am

So maybe they use fluidic diodes? This brief description http://www.fdx.de/en/products/fluidic-diode/ is for a device for gas turbines. So similar environment. Laminar flow in turbulent out, seems to match well with the needs to Turbulent Jet Ignition. Maybe something as simple as a bell mouth in and sharp edge out on the orifices in the spark plug shroud.
Interesting idea! The mixture "wants" to gather inside the shrouding.
The shrouding itself has acoustic properties, that in conjunction with the available charge in the chamber, and propagation via spark creates very favorable conditions for combustion, more so than in the main chamber. Even if total CC mixture is roughly homogenously lean, the chamber could still be effective at initiating combustion for a variety of reasons.
This is awesome. I think I'm getting this now and I also (now) think that this is highly likely to be what they're doing. It seems awefully sensitive (or delicate, perhaps?) though.

tcooper27
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by tcooper27 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:42 pm
tcooper27 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:53 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:38 pm


My theory= a supposition of a system of ideas based on general principles, cannot be any more and cannot be any less. as long as what is being used by the respective four is such a highly guarded secret. maybe when time passes and this present combustion development is Superseded by a more advanced development we will get not only to know but also see with our own eyes like what happened with the “write-up” permission of the FERRARI 2000 winning car publication, the first of its kind in such a secretive technical matters.
So you have no theory that you think is good enough to contribute but you're 100% sure they're not using TJI because a third party translator doesn't know anything about a specific engineer at Honda? :roll:

Do you have any experience in prototype engine development or advanced combustion technologies to back up your claims? Any real evidence that they're using something other than what they're publishing? Any reason to believe Honda is lying to all of us through these publications? Anything at all?
TJI as used by Mahle with the injector and spark plug in one housing isn't being used, HCCI isn't being used. Those are his only claims, which don't require much to verify. Now whether his claim that a diesel style pre-chamber isn't being used, probably not too far out there. There's plenty of ways to skin a cat(ie improve the speed and power of combustion), fuel chemistry being a biggie.
Yes, Mahle's commercial TJI system and HCCI were ruled out 300 pages ago. There are more ways to implement TJI than Mahle's published approach. Even Mahle itself has developed another way to achieve it in a way that complies with F1 rules and have been running it in the Ferrari since 2015.

Straight from the mouth of Mahle's VP:
More than five years of development preceded that crucial phone call to Maranello with the proposal: “We’ve found an interesting new solution for you.” A Mahle press release explains. “Within a few weeks, in spring 2015, we adapted our solution to the Formula 1 requirements, allowing Ferrari to compete in Canada with this solution for the first time,” recollects Fred Türk. Vice President MAHLE Motorsport.

Not only is TJI getting widespread use in F1, it's also tickling down to other series. In GT500, Honda, Nissan, and Lexus all use TJI in their engines.

To say that TJI is not in use in F1 or not applicable to race engines is ridiculous.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by 1158 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:54 pm

The regs allow up to 5 injection pulses per combustion cycle, right?

Way out there idea, but would it be possible to have different nozzles that allowed for different spray patterns or even different spray patterns from the same nozzle. One of the spray patterns directs the fuel at an opening to the prechamber?

That would be pretty complicated and sounded better in my head than it did once I typed it out...

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:02 pm

5 sparks per cycle, unlimited injection pulses.
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hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:08 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:02 pm
5 sparks per cycle, unlimited injection pulses.
What's a good fantasy or idea about why there's a limit like that?

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:53 am

"09/11/2018 14:48:- Also when all 4 use TJI, why keep it secret to each other that they do?". With a glass in hand as is traditional over here, PROSIT AMICO, I couldn't have put it any better.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:27 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:53 am
"09/11/2018 14:48:- Also when all 4 use TJI, why keep it secret to each other that they do?". With a glass in hand as is traditional over here, PROSIT AMICO, I couldn't have put it any better.
It’s far from secret and anyway knowledge is definitely not understanding. Detail design has always been secretive and always will be so long as there is an advantage to be had. Look at the aerodynamics, as plain as the nose on your face, and yet large differentials in performance.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

tcooper27
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by tcooper27 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:42 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:53 am
"09/11/2018 14:48:- Also when all 4 use TJI, why keep it secret to each other that they do?". With a glass in hand as is traditional over here, PROSIT AMICO, I couldn't have put it any better.
What secret? Honda and Ferrari openly admit they’re using it and Renault and Mercedes are always tight lipped about anything in their engines.

Zynerji
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Zynerji » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:38 am

henry wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:37 am
hurril wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:56 am
gruntguru wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:15 am

At the beginning of the compression stroke the density in the cylinder (including the pre-chamber) is about 3 times atmospheric. At the end of the compression stroke the density in the combustion chamber (including the pre-chamber) is about 15 times that i.e. 45 times atmospheric. (assuming 15:1 CR). This means that 14/15 ths (93%) of the contents of the pre-chamber have flowed into it during the compression stroke and almost all of this 93% is fresh charge. The very worst case scenario where all the exhaust remaining in the pre-chamber at the end of the exhaust stroke stays there throughout the intake stroke, would still only allow 7% residual exhaust in the pre-chamber.
Right and this is a very good explanation. Why or how, though, would the mixture become denser within the shroud/ pre-chamber than it is without it? I take it this has to entail some vert intricate injector spray pattern and timing combined with some very precise fluid dynamics; because for a denser mixture to end up inside, it has to first form outside the pre-chamber.

If the mixture is not denser within the pre-chamber, then what does it buy? Is there more to having a shrouding or containment than its effect on the mixture? Does containment of the primary ignition event improve its triggering effect in a way that makes it ignite a homogenous mixture better?
So maybe they use fluidic diodes? This brief description http://www.fdx.de/en/products/fluidic-diode/ is for a device for gas turbines. So similar environment. Laminar flow in turbulent out, seems to match well with the needs to Turbulent Jet Ignition. Maybe something as simple as a bell mouth in and sharp edge out on the orifices in the spark plug shroud.
In my mind, the orifices of the jet exits should be two circular drillings, about 15 degrees +/- from level, that are drilled at a tangent into the pre chamber cavity.

Thus, the exit orifices would look like a simple steak-knife blade serration (tooth) that would cause a twin, counter rotating vortex to emerge. If there were 6 of these around the nozzle, I would expect the rotations to actually ingest the unburnt mixture due to the pressure differential within each "slice" of the chamber.

So it would burn quickly, not by spreading the flame front, but by dividing the area into 6ths, then have one side of the pie slice at low pressure while the other at high to cause the unburnt mix to always be sucked into the flame.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:55 am

hurril wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:56 am
gruntguru wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:15 am
hurril wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 pm
When this has been discussed, it's been suggested that the mixture "compresses into" the pre-chamber. I, myself, struggle a bit with this and also with how it's cleared well enough post ignition. But I certainly want to believe/ understand it.
At the beginning of the compression stroke the density in the cylinder (including the pre-chamber) is about 3 times atmospheric. At the end of the compression stroke the density in the combustion chamber (including the pre-chamber) is about 15 times that i.e. 45 times atmospheric. (assuming 15:1 CR). This means that 14/15 ths (93%) of the contents of the pre-chamber have flowed into it during the compression stroke and almost all of this 93% is fresh charge. The very worst case scenario where all the exhaust remaining in the pre-chamber at the end of the exhaust stroke stays there throughout the intake stroke, would still only allow 7% residual exhaust in the pre-chamber.
Right and this is a very good explanation. Why or how, though, would the mixture become denser within the shroud/ pre-chamber than it is without it? I take it this has to entail some vert intricate injector spray pattern and timing combined with some very precise fluid dynamics; because for a denser mixture to end up inside, it has to first form outside the pre-chamber.

If the mixture is not denser within the pre-chamber, then what does it buy? Is there more to having a shrouding or containment than its effect on the mixture? Does containment of the primary ignition event improve its triggering effect in a way that makes it ignite a homogenous mixture better?
Try this.
The direct injector fires early in the intake stroke. Although it is directed towards the pre-chamber area, there is no flow into the pre-chamber (through the 6 - 8 orifices which point towards the extremities of the main chamber shape at TDC). This fuel gets mixed throughout the main chamber by the tumble and swirl created during the intake stroke and continuing somewhat during the compression stroke. The result is a well mixed (homogeneous) lean mixture and in the absence of further injection pulses some of this lean mix will be forced into the pre-chamber during the compression stroke.

To create a richer mix in the pre-chamber, simply fire the injector again during the compression stroke creating a richer zone near the pre-chamber. Some of this richer mix will enter the pre-chamber creating the desired AFR at the spark plug. A small zone of richer mix will also remain in the main chamber but the majority of the main chamber will remain at the much leaner AFR required.
je suis charlie

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:50 am

Easier said than done!!
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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:12 am

Getting it right is mostly down to time spent on the dyno.
je suis charlie

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:38 am

gruntguru wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:12 am
Getting it right is mostly down to time spent on the dyno.
Do you think it might be a two stage process? Step1 identify “optimum” conditions in the two chambers, with a separate injector for the prechamber. Step2 try to replicate those results using a single injector.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:06 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:12 am
Getting it right is mostly down to time spent on the dyno.
We know Honda and Mercedes Injectors are mounted from the exhaust side of the engine. Has anyone confirmed where the Ferrari injectors are mounted? Reasoning is that the Ferrari is the one with confirmed "Mahle TJI adapted for F1 regulations" so it might give a clue if Honda and Merc method of injection is similar to Ferrari. Of course I bevel all of them have some paid license to Mahle, but some slight differences.

I am starting to believe the "double anchor" theory is likely true... (Injector has a second stage nozzle that shoots sideways into the pre-chamber.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:46 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:06 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:12 am
Getting it right is mostly down to time spent on the dyno.
We know Honda and Mercedes Injectors are mounted from the exhaust side of the engine. Has anyone confirmed where the Ferrari injectors are mounted? Reasoning is that the Ferrari is the one with confirmed "Mahle TJI adapted for F1 regulations" so it might give a clue if Honda and Merc method of injection is similar to Ferrari. Of course I bevel all of them have some paid license to Mahle, but some slight differences.

I am starting to believe the "double anchor" theory is likely true... (Injector has a second stage nozzle that shoots sideways into the pre-chamber.
according to Mark Hughes (three years ago) all four were using the Mahle TJI pre-chamber system and also according to him FERRARI confirmed it.