Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:45 pm

hurril wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:39 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:27 pm
hurril wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:20 pm


Power isn't the issue. Energy is.
Energy comes from fuel, and there is no limit to drive the mgu-k from the engine/engine powered ancillaries. Maybe creating a storage device for non electrical or chemical energy is not practical but it is allowed. In any case the MGU-K can send energy to the MGU-H which in turn can be sent anywhere in unlimited amounts.
Right. But there is a power limit for the MGU-k though and energy limits for the ancillaries. You're also not allowed to have more accumulators of any kind the way you suggest. There's no free lunch to be had here, not counting the "expensive lunch" to be had by re-routing via the MGU-h.
That's why you improve combustion efficiency, so you can get away with the expensive lunches.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:46 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:03 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:09 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:10 pm
The ancilliaries are listed in 5:13. They all consume power rather than generating it.

Where does it say ancillaries can't deliver power to the mgu-k?
Logic says that even if there was an ancilliary that could deliver power to the MGU-K that ancilliary would consume crankshaft power from the ICE which would suffer losses as it gets routed through the ancilliary and MGU-K back to the crank.

Also the energy stored outside the ERS is limited to 300kJ with 20kJ recoverable at >2kW. Interestingly the regs doesn’t provide a reset period on the 20kJ, it may be per lap or it might be per race. Who knows. Either way it’s not a huge advantage.
It doesn't need to be huge to be worthwhile, it just has to deliver an improvement.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:41 am

dren wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:08 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:32 am
Should be possible to do a like for like test of the 2018 vs 2019 MGUH and MGUK on a NSX. I see no issues there. 6.5% increase in harvesting is a considerable amount.

They could litterally strap on a Honda F1 turbocharger on the back of the NSX 3.5 liter V6 to sort of simulate the turbo dynamics. Getting 850 horsepower from 3 liters and 11k rpm shouldn't be so hard for them. Then again it a fanciful story that may not be true! haha :mrgreen:
Surely the exhaust energy wasted out of the NSX engine is different to that of the F1 PU?
Yes and no. Still 6 cylinders V6. So the basic pulse pattern should be the same.Not sure about the pulse "timbre". The port size could be the same.. The cylinder is just bigger but it can easily be designed to push out the same amount of air as the 1.5 liter turbo engine. And it is a like for like comparison between 2018 and 2019 MGUH so there is scientific control.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:28 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:41 am
dren wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:08 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:32 am
Should be possible to do a like for like test of the 2018 vs 2019 MGUH and MGUK on a NSX. I see no issues there. 6.5% increase in harvesting is a considerable amount.

They could litterally strap on a Honda F1 turbocharger on the back of the NSX 3.5 liter V6 to sort of simulate the turbo dynamics. Getting 850 horsepower from 3 liters and 11k rpm shouldn't be so hard for them. Then again it a fanciful story that may not be true! haha :mrgreen:
Surely the exhaust energy wasted out of the NSX engine is different to that of the F1 PU?
Yes and no. Still 6 cylinders V6. So the basic pulse pattern should be the same.Not sure about the pulse "timbre". The port size could be the same.. The cylinder is just bigger but it can easily be designed to push out the same amount of air as the 1.5 liter turbo engine. And it is a like for like comparison between 2018 and 2019 MGUH so there is scientific control.
NSX V6 has a 75 degree bank angle vs 90 for F1.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:41 am
dren wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:08 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:32 am
Should be possible to do a like for like test of the 2018 vs 2019 MGUH and MGUK on a NSX. I see no issues there. 6.5% increase in harvesting is a considerable amount.

They could litterally strap on a Honda F1 turbocharger on the back of the NSX 3.5 liter V6 to sort of simulate the turbo dynamics. Getting 850 horsepower from 3 liters and 11k rpm shouldn't be so hard for them. Then again it a fanciful story that may not be true! haha :mrgreen:
Surely the exhaust energy wasted out of the NSX engine is different to that of the F1 PU?
Yes and no. Still 6 cylinders V6. So the basic pulse pattern should be the same.Not sure about the pulse "timbre". The port size could be the same.. The cylinder is just bigger but it can easily be designed to push out the same amount of air as the 1.5 liter turbo engine. And it is a like for like comparison between 2018 and 2019 MGUH so there is scientific control.
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
Honda!

ian_s
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ian_s » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm

They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
Honda!

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
Honda!

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:40 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
I think they wil clutch at ant straws in reach. Even if it does no good it probably makes them feel better :mrgreen:

No knowledge is wasted.
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:27 am

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
They can use a non-homologated engine if they like, and slap a RedBull drive train on there...
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am

ian_s wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.

ian_s
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ian_s » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm

Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am
ian_s wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Craigy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 pm

ian_s wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am
ian_s wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm

I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno
We've been around this discussion before. There are dynoes that can give more than 1G on a gimbal.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:19 pm

Hard to do it sustained, nevertheless point taken. Would G forces still be a concern? I'm sure the baffling on the oil tank isn't an issue any more. The engine mated to the rear end, and the torsional forces involved, and how they affect the resonance of the transmission shafts on the crank, and the rest of the ICE is probably a bigger priority. I think they realized this while working together this year(Honda/Red Bull), so all of this has already been taken into account. They now have 3 different factories with dynos all running trying different things. They also have a works partnership with a large petrochemical company to help things along, something they didn't have with McLaren.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee