2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

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siskue2005
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:29 pm

foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:42 pm
I dont like refueling. People say DRS is gimmicky... refueling is a real gimmick especially when some teams have B-teams. It will be so dirty. Slower cars fueling less just to block faster cars etc.
and how will those slower cars get in front of the faster cars?

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Diesel » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:26 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:19 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:58 pm
Its far from Boring now, so why bring it back ?!
And I know they are fuel limited now, I'm just saying that adding refuelling wont add anything to the show other than more chance of pit stops going wrong with a sticky fuel nozzle.
adding refueling will allow for different strategies and pushing through out the race....people can light fuel and go faster....like Hungary 1998 and France 2004....both possible only due to refuelling (otherwise Schumacher would have tried to undercut the others and failed to do so in the one and only pitstop)
People seem to think F1 of 15yrs ago was way better than it is now, when the only thing that was certainly better was the sound/volume.
The poor aero rules and poor competitions (frankly there was no one to match Schumacher and ferrari...or he was so OP that no one could match him) were the real culprit back then...... with today's aero and DRS it would have been great racing
F1 needs tyres capable of that, the current tyres can't even complete a qualifying lap without losing a decent chunk of their performance.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by NathanOlder » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:56 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:13 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm


That was due to poor aero and lack of mechanical grip ....which has been solved now with cleaner aero, slick tyres and DRS etc...... i dont remember anyone not overtaking other car ONLY because of refueling, it was 99% due to poor aero.....it is like saying that the 9/11 attacks happened during the refueling era, so no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me :wtf: :lol: :lol:
WtaF ?

There were times you know that a driver was probably going to pit in the next few laps, as teams knew how much fuel others had onboard, so if the guy in front next year was a Verstappen or Grosjean or KMag, and you know he will definitely pit in 1-3 laps time, the result is, you probably don't risk it and save your tyres/fuel and not bother attempting to overtake so when they pull in to the pits, you can turn it all up and use the best part of the tyres when in clean air.
So IMO refuelling doesn't promote overtaking at all.
why do you think they waited and overtook in the pits?? coz they couldnt follow and stay behind another car.... and without the DRS there was no chance to even come near another car ( as the aero, grooved tyres etc didnt allow them).....so refueling was not the reason of lack of overtaking.

Refueling would promote more pitstops and varying strategies......otherwise we will get one pitstop and saving tyres for the 3/4th of the race (prime example abudabhi race 2018)
So let me get this right,

People want to bring back refuelling, a time when there was no overtaking. And refuelling obviously didnt promote overtaking, otherwise there would have been overtaking in that era which you just said didnt happen.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Big Tea » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:02 pm

I am open to the notion of refueling being allowed as an OPTION, it did add to the spectacle. I do not like the compulsory anything, including tyre stops.
The teams should have as many options as possible, but this would require the tyre manufacturers to join the game then. 10 different options of fuel and tyres V a straight through with the strategies converging on the penultimate lap would be nice.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:45 pm

Every pitstop carries risks of something going wrong. That's why the teams try to go one stop whenever possible. The only way to change that is to change the risk/reward ratio.
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siskue2005
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:02 pm
I am open to the notion of refueling being allowed as an OPTION, it did add to the spectacle. I do not like the compulsory anything, including tyre stops.
The teams should have as many options as possible, but this would require the tyre manufacturers to join the game then. 10 different options of fuel and tyres V a straight through with the strategies converging on the penultimate lap would be nice.
if it was an option then surely all teams will use it, as you only need a smaller fuel tank meaning more ballast to move around....they will go for pre 2009 era type tanks and cars will get shorter and indirectly also would make it easy to overtake

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Big Tea » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:52 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:02 pm
I am open to the notion of refueling being allowed as an OPTION, it did add to the spectacle. I do not like the compulsory anything, including tyre stops.
The teams should have as many options as possible, but this would require the tyre manufacturers to join the game then. 10 different options of fuel and tyres V a straight through with the strategies converging on the penultimate lap would be nice.
if it was an option then surely all teams will use it, as you only need a smaller fuel tank meaning more ballast to move around....they will go for pre 2009 era type tanks and cars will get shorter and indirectly also would make it easy to overtake
I dont think it would be a given. There has to be a point of diminishing returns on the carried weight, so it would probably be between a third and half way into the race. This would mean that the car would have to be in a position to regain 25+ seconds and re enter the race in a favorable position, which is why I say the tyre makers would have to play.

If it was a simple dash on low fuel and softest tyre to lap 15+- then cruse to the end on a tyre that would go the whole distance without a stop, that would be a no brainer.

If for instance tyre and fuel had to be different stops, or only the softest while fuel, or a good tyre would last the whole race and die 3,4,5 laps from the end, things would need to be considered. A pitstop in the last half dozen for fuel or tyres could stir things up, especially if there is a long safety car.
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:27 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm
cars will get shorter and indirectly also would make it easy to overtake
That seems to be a non sequitur. Just because they're slightly shorter, doesn't mean they can overtake more.

The refuelling era was as dull a period as any today.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:27 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm
cars will get shorter and indirectly also would make it easy to overtake
That seems to be a non sequitur. Just because they're slightly shorter, doesn't mean they can overtake more.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/03/02/ham ... vertaking/
just quoting the 5 times WDC on overtaking better with lighter cars
The refuelling era was as dull a period as any today.
ok but can u point the finger for dull races on the refuelling alone?
no u cant, coz the refuelling era didnot start from 2001, it started 1994....we had great races up until 2000 and from 2001 onwards it went downhill. this happened due to raising the front wing height and lowering of rear wing...which meant over reliance on aero grip rather than mechanical grip PLUS the domination of Ferrari and Schumacher made it a snooze fest (this has nothing to do with the refuelling)

There was nothing to prove that refuelling was the culprit for the snooze fest, just an innocent bystander....image those years without the refueling ....Schumacher would have been stuck behind Alonso in Magny cours 2004 after a failed undercut attempt at lap 5, and saving tyres and fuel for the rest of the GP behind the world champion :roll: :lol:

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:32 pm

There's no evidence that refuelling will make for better racing (whatever that means) if the rest of the rules stay as they are proposed. You could lower the weight by various means - dumping the hybrid stuff and just having silly power levels from the ICE alone would cut weight by a fair amount, for example.
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by NathanOlder » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:55 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:27 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm
cars will get shorter and indirectly also would make it easy to overtake
That seems to be a non sequitur. Just because they're slightly shorter, doesn't mean they can overtake more.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/03/02/ham ... vertaking/
just quoting the 5 times WDC on overtaking better with lighter cars
But you've been asked how shorter cars help overtaking
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siskue2005
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:29 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:32 pm
There's no evidence that refuelling will make for better racing (whatever that means) if the rest of the rules stay as they are proposed. You could lower the weight by various means - dumping the hybrid stuff and just having silly power levels from the ICE alone would cut weight by a fair amount, for example.
And also there is no evidence that refuelling caused the snooze fest last time we had it.

But it surely does give a different strategies and more entertainment than the current ONE undercut chance and tyre sav8ng and cruising for 50 laps on one tyre.... if we had refuelling some one would pit after 25 laps and cause a chaos and ineffect more opportunities on track.

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:43 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:55 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:27 pm


That seems to be a non sequitur. Just because they're slightly shorter, doesn't mean they can overtake more.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/03/02/ham ... vertaking/
just quoting the 5 times WDC on overtaking better with lighter cars
But you've been asked how shorter cars help overtaking
Image
Surely it will be easy to overtake in a taxi than a London bus
2019 vs 2007
Image

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:37 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
But it surely does give a different strategies
There is generally one quickest way to do a race. Going lighter but adding pitstops is unlikely to be better than doing fewer pitstops. Refuelling adds time to the stop too, don't forget. Then, assuming the lighter guy can cut through the field - no guarantees - he comes up to a guy who is likely to carry on when he has to pit again for fuel or tyres. Also, bear in mind that the total fuel allowed is the same for both so the short fuelled guy has to use more fuel to catch up so at some point he will also need to save fuel.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Big Tea » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:40 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:37 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
But it surely does give a different strategies
There is generally one quickest way to do a race. Going lighter but adding pitstops is unlikely to be better than doing fewer pitstops. Refuelling adds time to the stop too, don't forget. Then, assuming the lighter guy can cut through the field - no guarantees - he comes up to a guy who is likely to carry on when he has to pit again for fuel or tyres. Also, bear in mind that the total fuel allowed is the same for both so the short fuelled guy has to use more fuel to catch up so at some point he will also need to save fuel.
But he was carrying less weight for the early part of the race, so fuel and tyres should last longer. So different strategies and different risks.
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