[MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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variante
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012, 11:36
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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Uh pretty nice!
I was waiting to see one of the cars from "CAEdevide school" in high downforce configuration.
Any plans for more aggressive front wings? Maybe another all width airfoil?
And what about a larger diffuser? Would it interfere too much with cooling?

It's too soon for me to show the new car, but since we've got to wait 2 months for the next race, we should think about something to shake up the situation! I don't know...Christmas liveries! ...or more seriously, a few "innocent" CFD images of all the cars to compare and discuss about.

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Alonso Fan
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Joined: 06 Apr 2013, 18:21

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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variante wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 19:18
Uh pretty nice!
I was waiting to see one of the cars from "CAEdevide school" in high downforce configuration.
Any plans for more aggressive front wings? Maybe another all width airfoil?
And what about a larger diffuser? Would it interfere too much with cooling?

It's too soon for me to show the new car, but since we've got to wait 2 months for the next race, we should think about something to shake up the situation! I don't know...Christmas liveries! ...or more seriously, a few "innocent" CFD images of all the cars to compare and discuss about.
As soon as I get my login I'm gonna download the software and run some cases. This is just a first iteration of the design. Trying to keep it simple to start off so that if I run into an issue it is easy to trace. My car from last year had a fundamental issue where the diffuser was being starved of air. I added some outwash vanes to the front wing to sort that out and after that I tried to add more front downforce but it wrecked up the flow further down and starved the diffuser again. I changed too much to understand what was the main problem so I ended up running the same car for the last 3 races because I was unsuccessful with my next iterations.

I know I need much more front downforce than this car has, just by eye. But I'm planning to add that bit by bit. The car for daytona will most likely look different.

Also, wouldn't efficiency be the main factor at daytona as well?
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variante
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012, 11:36
Location: Monza

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Alonso Fan wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 19:54
Also, wouldn't efficiency be the main factor at daytona as well?
No. Apparently it is a super high downforce track. More than Monaco.
Play with Virtual Stopwatch laptime sim and give us a feedback maybe.
I saw your big rear wing and double front canards and i assumed it was high downforce configuration.

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Alonso Fan
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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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variante wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 00:31
Alonso Fan wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 19:54
Also, wouldn't efficiency be the main factor at daytona as well?
No. Apparently it is a super high downforce track. More than Monaco.
Play with Virtual Stopwatch laptime sim and give us a feedback maybe.
I saw your big rear wing and double front canards and i assumed it was high downforce configuration.
Yes the renders show a high downforce configuration. I was just thinking about those long banked sections but now I've watched some onboards from the 24 hours and I agree it seems pretty high downforce.

I suppose it depends which car you have. Maybe it's different for, say, gte cars
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machin
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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variante wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 00:31
No. Apparently it is a super high downforce track. More than Monaco.
Play with Virtual Stopwatch laptime sim and give us a feedback maybe.
I thought I would have a play myself: I took the best of CAEDevice's cars from the past three years representing "low" "med" and "High" downforce levels (although even "low" is actually pretty high...), and ran them through Virtual Stopwatch (setting COP=1.65m each time) with the following results:

Image

You can see that of his cars the best one for Daytona is actually the low downforce one...

Daytona would benefit from a higher downforce setting IF efficiency could be maintained... but you can see from the data above that CAEDevice's car get's very much less efficient at high downforce levels...

I strongly recommend running a similar type of assessment for your own cars to determine which set-up is best for your cars....
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

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CAEdevice
45
Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy
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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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machin wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 11:44
variante wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 00:31
No. Apparently it is a super high downforce track. More than Monaco.
Play with Virtual Stopwatch laptime sim and give us a feedback maybe.
I thought I would have a play myself: I took the best of CAEDevice's cars from the past three years representing "low" "med" and "High" downforce levels (although even "low" is actually pretty high...), and ran them through Virtual Stopwatch (setting COP=1.65m each time) with the following results:

http://www.competition-car-engineering. ... oSetup.jpg

You can see that of his cars the best one for Daytona is actually the low downforce one...

Daytona would benefit from a higher downforce setting IF efficiency could be maintained... but you can see from the data above that CAEDevice's car get's very much less efficient at high downforce levels...

I strongly recommend running a similar type of assessment for your own cars to determine which set-up is best for your cars....
Very interesting analysis. About the "efficiency" car: I don't think that efficiency 7.3 could be possibile with 2018 rules (maybe it is possibile for Variante, not for me...).

What about Pikes Peak? Daytona and Pikes Peak are quite near and I thought I would have developed only one version of the car, but now I am not so sure about it.

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Alonso Fan
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Joined: 06 Apr 2013, 18:21

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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machin wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 11:44
variante wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 00:31
No. Apparently it is a super high downforce track. More than Monaco.
Play with Virtual Stopwatch laptime sim and give us a feedback maybe.
I thought I would have a play myself: I took the best of CAEDevice's cars from the past three years representing "low" "med" and "High" downforce levels (although even "low" is actually pretty high...), and ran them through Virtual Stopwatch (setting COP=1.65m each time) with the following results:

http://www.competition-car-engineering. ... oSetup.jpg

You can see that of his cars the best one for Daytona is actually the low downforce one...

Daytona would benefit from a higher downforce setting IF efficiency could be maintained... but you can see from the data above that CAEDevice's car get's very much less efficient at high downforce levels...

I strongly recommend running a similar type of assessment for your own cars to determine which set-up is best for your cars....
Thanks very much

This is very interesting
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BlakjeKaas
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Joined: 16 Sep 2018, 18:54

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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variante wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 19:18
It's too soon for me to show the new car, but since we've got to wait 2 months for the next race, we should think about something to shake up the situation! I don't know...Christmas liveries! ...or more seriously, a few "innocent" CFD images of all the cars to compare and discuss about.
I'm not keen to show CFD images yet, but I might do so in a couple of weeks..

At this moment I'm about to reach CAE's CL-values of last race, with 1.5 times the drag he had however.

I would be very content if I were to reach CL-levels of around 5.5, but I'm not sure whether this will be competitive enough.
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variante
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012, 11:36
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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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machin wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 11:44
variante wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 00:31
No. Apparently it is a super high downforce track. More than Monaco.
Play with Virtual Stopwatch laptime sim and give us a feedback maybe.
I thought I would have a play myself: I took the best of CAEDevice's cars from the past three years representing "low" "med" and "High" downforce levels (although even "low" is actually pretty high...), and ran them through Virtual Stopwatch (setting COP=1.65m each time) with the following results:

Image

You can see that of his cars the best one for Daytona is actually the low downforce one...

Daytona would benefit from a higher downforce setting IF efficiency could be maintained... but you can see from the data above that CAEDevice's car get's very much less efficient at high downforce levels...

I strongly recommend running a similar type of assessment for your own cars to determine which set-up is best for your cars....
Interesting and unexpected (to me) results. I never tested the two variables (downforce and efficiency) at the same time.

Instead, I played keeping efficiency constant:
Image
My target was to isolate downforce effect on laptime, and apparently Daytona and Pikes Peak reward downforce gains more than Monaco.

But I should have run this other test, where downforce is kept constant:
Image
...which suggests that Monaco is nearly immune to efficiency gains, while Daytona is still sensitive to it (much less than the first 3 tracks we raced on, though).

The lesson we can learn is that in Monaco you can increase downforce wildly, without considering efficiency. In Daytona and Pikes Peak your main target is still downforce, but you definitely have to keep an eye on efficiency.

But also: for Daytona, increasing efficiency by 1 point is worth only 1/3 of increasing downforce by 1 point. Which states clearly that it is not an efficiency circuit, especially if you consider Le Mans, where 1 point in efficiency is worth more than 10 times the equivalent in downforce.

(BTW those are not linear functions. I don't grant my considerations to be true outside of the reported range)

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machin
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Yes, I did a similar check (by the way; the +20% DF and -20% Drag figures are given directly in the lower window of Virtual Stopwatch), this time I used Team Bart's car from the last round as the baseline:-

Image
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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy
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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Hi everybody. How is the developement going?
Variante and JJR are adding tons of downforce to their car?
I am quite surprised about the fact that my high downforce car will not have so much additional downforce as it happened in 2017 swithcing between different tracks. New rules make impossibile such downforce gains (it is realistic, so I appreciate it).

I have a doubt about the rules (maybe I found a small bug or I could not read the rules properly, as usual).

Rules 3.3 says: "Any bodywork visible from below, which lies directly above/below floor guide 2, excluding the parts inside the rear wing volume, must be no more than 270mm above the reference plane", but i think that it is impossibile to comply with that rule inside the volume of that damn cut behinf the wheel (see the picture below).

Image

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machin
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Hhhmmm, looks like we might need a modification here.... can you exploit that until the loophole gets closed?! 🧐😂
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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy
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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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We could simply cut "floor guide 2" surface where it goes outside the allowed volume, or we could extend the allowed volume.

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Cool, the year starts with the interesting type of work. I will try to have a look and talk to machin today. But most likely it is a matter of cutting that surface a bit, just like you suggested. So no need for anyone to start looking into exploiting this.

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2018

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Should be fixed now.
Thanks Matteo.

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