Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:23 pm

ringo wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:17 am
Looks like whenever Honda increase power, they get vibrations... why is this no common with the other engines?
Or maybe the others aren't leaking information as much.
Honda said they designed in a certain amount of allowance for future power upgrades for vibration but ate all that allotment up with the spec 3 update.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:53 pm

the key part of the shift process in NA Honda F1 seemed to be controlling torque slipped and torque transmitted by the clutch
(they didn't seem to cut the ignition)
the response time (a few millisec) of this control would be an unavoidable factor governing the quality of the shift
also some surge periods within the load system seem likely to be of this order
even the NA V8 wouldn't respond to ignition cutting as fast as the shift time (c. 2 msec) required
whatever is done its crankshaft rpm cannot be reduced quickly enough
but the clutch output/gearbox input rpm is reduced quickly enough - by a rapid and suitably timed slipping of the clutch

the V6 hybrid PU clearly has a slower response (than the NA V8) to ignition or injection cutting
though the K machine is in generation mode during upshifts to minimise its inertial impediment to slowing the PU rpm
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:05 pm

"Toro Rosso provided an intercooler with lower pressure loss, so simply switching from Mclaren to Toro Rosso already improved the horsepower..."

This is really interesting...

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:16 pm

And finally the truth has been spoken:

“However, just improving the combustion decreases the MGU-H recovery, so we need to balance the two. And that balance is technologically difficult. A ICE engineer might want an increase in horsepower, but that doesn’t necessarily increase the total energy recovery per lap.”

“It’s really a well thought out set of regulations.”

The reality is that a horsepower gained from the ICE is not equal to that gained from the MGU-H. On some circuits, the former might be more valuable, while at others the MGU-H might be more important. Improving both the ICE and the MGU-H—which are fundamentally at a trade-off —while finding the optimal balance of the two, is the crux of PU development."

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:46 pm

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:16 pm
And finally the truth has been spoken:

“However, just improving the combustion decreases the MGU-H recovery, so we need to balance the two. And that balance is technologically difficult. A ICE engineer might want an increase in horsepower, but that doesn’t necessarily increase the total energy recovery per lap.”

“It’s really a well thought out set of regulations.”

The reality is that a horsepower gained from the ICE is not equal to that gained from the MGU-H. On some circuits, the former might be more valuable, while at others the MGU-H might be more important. Improving both the ICE and the MGU-H—which are fundamentally at a trade-off —while finding the optimal balance of the two, is the crux of PU development."
Well said. A KW gained in the ICE, can be sacrificed to gain 2 KW in the MGU-H, for net increase of 1KW. Having a more efficient combustion process overall gives you more leeway in order to make those sacrifices. In other words improving the ICE may not show a gain in ICE power but it shows a gain in MGU-H power. The MGU-H itself has a recovery operating window, and that window shrinks or widens based on the ICE settings. Having a less costly combustion process overall means those sacrifices can be easier to achieve technically speaking. It also makes sense as MGU-H recovery has been the main weakness of the Honda PU since its inception. As the efficiency and power have progressed, the tricks about how to get the most out of the MGU-H have started revealing themselves.

As these are compound engines, the gains themselves are compounded, so a 2KW gain from MGU-H recovery can open all sorts of unforseen gains regarding MGU-K deployment, or energy management. Or may lead to problems, which when sorted can aid in the fixing of other problems, such is the nature of development.
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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:16 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:53 pm
though the K machine is in generation mode during upshifts to minimise its inertial impediment to slowing the PU rpm
It looks like it's in motoring mode during most upshifts and generating during downshifts/braking if I'm reading the graph right? Some spikes on upshifts.
Image
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:34 pm

imo
around corner 10 there's generation spikes coinciding with upshifts at roughly 3550 3900 (hundredths of seconds ?)
around corner 15 ditto ditto 4980 5050 and 5300
others may be less conspicuous

they will be spiky as they only last for millisecs
some won't appear on the display at all as ......
generation only shows after it fills the onboard capacitive store and the surplus appears as a voltage/time event on the DC bus

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:51 am

Looking at the MGUK trace in that plot it doesn't seem to do any motoring. Is this an out-lap prior to qualy' hot-laps ie the car in accumulation mode?
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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:19 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:51 am
Looking at the MGUK trace in that plot it doesn't seem to do any motoring. Is this an out-lap prior to qualy' hot-laps ie the car in accumulation mode?
Up is motoring, down is generation. It doesn't sit idle much. The two overlayed plots are comparing 2016 and 2017. You can see they motor a little longer at the end of the straight in 2017 with their extra harvesting giving them a bit more K motoring (blue line). The H is opposite, down is motoring, up is generating. This is a lap of Spa.

Here's the other graph that shows the H and K a bit better, though the two plots here are comparing extra harvest on/off:
Image
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by etusch » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:28 pm

Despite recent reports suggesting Honda had discovered a new vibration problem when testing its 2019 engine, it is understood that the manufacturer has not experienced a major setback although is hoping to make more progress with the development before testing begins.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... e/4321700/

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:09 pm

Honda: "We never had a contract with AVL".

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gandharva » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:57 pm

That bild story was bullshit. It smelled like bullshit at announcement and usually it is bullshit overall. "bild.de" in all it's degenerative forms is literally the shithole of german journalism.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Blackout » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:31 pm

Image

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:36 pm

Blackout wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:31 pm
https://servimg.com/view/14795526/2304
:lol: I needed that.
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:38 am

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:46 pm
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:16 pm
And finally the truth has been spoken:

“However, just improving the combustion decreases the MGU-H recovery, so we need to balance the two. And that balance is technologically difficult. A ICE engineer might want an increase in horsepower, but that doesn’t necessarily increase the total energy recovery per lap.”

“It’s really a well thought out set of regulations.”

The reality is that a horsepower gained from the ICE is not equal to that gained from the MGU-H. On some circuits, the former might be more valuable, while at others the MGU-H might be more important. Improving both the ICE and the MGU-H—which are fundamentally at a trade-off —while finding the optimal balance of the two, is the crux of PU development."
Well said. A KW gained in the ICE, can be sacrificed to gain 2 KW in the MGU-H, for net increase of 1KW.
I don't think they mean it this way.. It might mean where and when the power is used on the circuit...the ICE will always gain more energy than the MGUH because of thermodynamics and transfer losses. but with the MGUH and battery you can store that energy (though it is less than what it would have been in the ICE) whenever you want to for best lap time.Like a hybrid car is good in traffic, but is dead weight on the highway.
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