F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
M840TR
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by M840TR » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:54 am

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:32 am
M840TR wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:32 am
blueytoo wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:57 pm
arc spray low friction coating used by Mercedes.

http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/ ... d=14316637
Is it possible to use this tech on other engine components besides cylinders like the head or turbo etc?
You mean combustion chamber or ports, or the exhaust manifold? I don't know how you could use it in the combustion chamber itself, wouldn't affect air flow any appreciable way. Or do you mean the valve train? Turbo or MGU-H bearings perhaps?
But they did use it in the cylinders of the engine block i.e combustion chamber.
Since the point is to reduce friction and hence increase efficiency, then could it be used in any other moving part like the turbo or mgu-h?

godlameroso
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:08 am

It could, you have a lot of leeway as far as coatings go and a lot of this stuff is a fraction of a mm thick. It's most used in the bores because the rings undergo a fair bit friction as does the skirt on the thrust side. ~35% of a regular road car's engine heat is wasted as friction between parts. So any friction you can eliminate anywhere improves efficiency.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

M840TR
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by M840TR » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:09 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:08 am
It could, you have a lot of leeway as far as coatings go and a lot of this stuff is a fraction of a mm thick. It's most used in the bores because the rings undergo a fair bit friction as does the skirt on the thrust side. ~35% of a regular road car's engine heat is wasted as friction between parts. So any friction you can eliminate anywhere improves efficiency.
Has there been any indication that other manufacturers in F1 have caught upto Mercedes in this field? They have 40 patents guarding the tech.

godlameroso
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:03 pm

M840TR wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:09 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:08 am
It could, you have a lot of leeway as far as coatings go and a lot of this stuff is a fraction of a mm thick. It's most used in the bores because the rings undergo a fair bit friction as does the skirt on the thrust side. ~35% of a regular road car's engine heat is wasted as friction between parts. So any friction you can eliminate anywhere improves efficiency.
Has there been any indication that other manufacturers in F1 have caught upto Mercedes in this field? They have 40 patents guarding the tech.
Honda has been in the low friction coating game for a long time.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Brian.G
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by Brian.G » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:25 pm

I thought I would take the time to also show the system used in the Peugeot V10 F1 engine that member E36Jon posted on page 13.

It is the same style system as in the start of this thread - as in a bucket tappet system - direct acting off the lobe - no finger follower.

The one difference with this system is the barrel itself is all steel, and the tappet has a crowned roof which the cam acts on. The crowned roof allows a more aggressive cam. A normal flat tappet does not allow such an aggressive lobe since the lobe starts to contact the tappet perimeter edge after a certain point.

Some parts are DLC coated - because the tappet is crowned it cannot be allowed to rotate. So, there are two index tabs on the inside of the bucket tappet that locate in slots on the outside of the barrel. These index tabs stop the bucket tappet from rotating under the lobe. This crowned tappet system is semi common now from memory, and can be seen on the Bmw M3, or the E60 M5 - not pneumatic though obviously.

The complete assembly can be seen below,

Image

It comprises of the valve, valve collets, lash cap, barrel, bucket tappet, and the piston plunger + seals.

The crown detail,

Image

The main parts,

Image

The index slot detail on the barrel wall,

Image

The mating tab on the bucket tappet, and also the area that sits on the lash cap,

Image

Image

The interior of the steel barrel - three bolt down holes plus air holes, also notice the 4 small air holes at stem area. These holes allow pressurized air from the barrel to travel down to the valve stem seal. This air pressure energizes the lip seal making it 'air tight' against the 5mm valve stem,

Image

Image

The seal - seal inverted to show lip area,

Image

Onto the piston plunger now, its an aluminium part and pretty simple in form,

Image

There are three seals in total on this part - the main air piston seal, a valve stem o-ring seal on the under side, and a lash cap o-ring seal on the top side.

A closer look at the lash cap o-ring seal. The lash cap picture in the group photo at start of thread is just a small hardened disc that sits ontop of valve stem, and is what the bucket tappet bears down on. These lash caps can be ground to set clearances.

Image

The stem seal is housed down in the piston plunger - a poor shot and hard to capture,

Image

A shot of the spring energized main plunger seal,

Image

Image

And lastly, a shot showing valve and collets fitted - the lash cap then locates down in this bore, and is sealed with the o-ring shown.

Image

That concludes this piece. I think as mentioned before it is great to see all these different systems and styles. I was always intrigued by them and set out about 5years ago to locate them, see how they worked and display all. Its taken me to many parts of the world looking for them, and has been a huge effort as its nearly impossible get your hands on them, or even any info.

I think now that I'm happy to park my findings on them - in this thread you will find the very early style, this style above, and onto the modern high rpm Cosworth V8 finger follower style item. The one thing common in them all is the seal styles.
Here is a link to the Cosworth V8 finger follower style item mentioned above incase you missed it,

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24821

Enjoy,

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

e36jon
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by e36jon » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:51 pm

Thanks for another amazing write-up Brian! It's awesome that you continue to put this level of effort into sharing these parts.

I didn't see any obvious (to me) makers-marks on the pieces. Are these Del West parts?

I have it in my head that normal bucket-style followers rotate, on purpose, to distribute wear. With this guided style that obviously can't happen, so do they just time them out / inspect & replace? Maybe all the coatings make it a moot point? Maybe the seal life-span is the limiter?

Just pondering really, so only answer at your convenience...

Cheers,

Jon

Brian.G
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by Brian.G » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:03 pm

e36jon wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:51 pm
Thanks for another amazing write-up Brian! It's awesome that you continue to put this level of effort into sharing these parts.

I didn't see any obvious (to me) makers-marks on the pieces. Are these Del West parts?

I have it in my head that normal bucket-style followers rotate, on purpose, to distribute wear. With this guided style that obviously can't happen, so do they just time them out / inspect & replace? Maybe all the coatings make it a moot point? Maybe the seal life-span is the limiter?

Just pondering really, so only answer at your convenience...

Cheers,

Jon
Jon,

The valve is marked Delwest, I believe the rest of the parts were in house by JPX.

I would think the wear would be minimal on the crown - for example finger followers see the same type of sliding wear and last for years in production engines.

Brian,

Edit, It was indeed the Bmw V10 E85 engine which the crowned tappet design features in >

Image
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

godlameroso
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:49 pm

Thank you Brian for taking the time to share this with us.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Brian.G
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Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by Brian.G » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:29 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:49 pm
Thank you Brian for taking the time to share this with us.
You are welcome!

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

LeeJohnson
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:39 pm

Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by LeeJohnson » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:51 pm

Brian & I had a PM discussion about the design/function of the pneumatic spring pressurization sub-system. He agreed it would be OK to post it up here so others can be aware of my questions & some of his answers. Following are the questions I posed to him:

"I am puzzling a bit over the pneumatic valve pressurization system design that is used. In your post about the pneumatic valve system, you point out the pneumatic chamber "bleed valve" (my made up phrase as I don't know a more official term). I can understand one of it's functions being to eliminate creeping loss of internal volume with lubricating oil leakage into the piston cavity. Is there also a check valve in the upstream pneumatic pressure path from the source? I seems to me such a thing would be needed (likely for each pneumatic valve assembly) to avoid back-flow & get a reasonable pressure buildup (hence, spring rate) as the cam opens the valve. Maybe just a very small restriction would suffice instead of an actual one way valve. If there is check valving in the pressure source, is it a micro valve (like Lee Hydraulics in USA makes)? Where located? Is there one check valve per pneumatic spring?"

In my PM exchange with Brian, he indicates he will post up some answers next week (with more pictures). Meanwhile, write yourself a note with your best guesses of the answers!

Lee

e36jon
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Location: California, USA

Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by e36jon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Regarding 'bleed valves': My guess = Engineering something, engineering something, and unicorn. Mostly unicorn.

Actually this forum has shown me again and again how pragmatic a lot of the engineering is for F1 engines, so my guess is a small orifice with no check valve. Can't see why that wouldn't work...

Cheers,

Jon

Brian.G
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Location: Ireland

Re: F1 Cylinder Head Design and Pneumatics, a closer look

Post by Brian.G » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:09 pm

LeeJohnson wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:51 pm
Brian & I had a PM discussion about the design/function of the pneumatic spring pressurization sub-system. He agreed it would be OK to post it up here so others can be aware of my questions & some of his answers. Following are the questions I posed to him:

"I am puzzling a bit over the pneumatic valve pressurization system design that is used. In your post about the pneumatic valve system, you point out the pneumatic chamber "bleed valve" (my made up phrase as I don't know a more official term). I can understand one of it's functions being to eliminate creeping loss of internal volume with lubricating oil leakage into the piston cavity. Is there also a check valve in the upstream pneumatic pressure path from the source? I seems to me such a thing would be needed (likely for each pneumatic valve assembly) to avoid back-flow & get a reasonable pressure buildup (hence, spring rate) as the cam opens the valve. Maybe just a very small restriction would suffice instead of an actual one way valve. If there is check valving in the pressure source, is it a micro valve (like Lee Hydraulics in USA makes)? Where located? Is there one check valve per pneumatic spring?"

In my PM exchange with Brian, he indicates he will post up some answers next week (with more pictures). Meanwhile, write yourself a note with your best guesses of the answers!

Lee
Lee,

I'll be posting the answers here as they will be based on the newer/newest type assembly.

viewtopic.php?t=24821

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will