2019 performance speculation

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Cannonballer
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by Cannonballer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:41 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:58 pm
Very true, he was still dumped by Toro Rosso though and when Hartley ends up in his seat, it shows how low they rated him.
Then dumped Hartley and brought back Kvyat.
Wazari wrote: There's a saying in Japan, He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........

techman
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by techman » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:31 am

kyatt is highly underated. he beat ric in 2015. i think his race pace is a match to ric but in qual , ric is slightly better. i not suprised they brought him.

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by GPR -A » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:28 am

In 2015, Ric outqualified Kvyat by 12-7 and ended with 92 points to Kvyat's 95.

It's not ONLY about a driver's speed over a lap that matters. It's about how he performs on a race day. Kvyat has been a wrecker in races and who can forget Kvyat taking out Vettel by hitting him twice in a 100 meter distance. He put a nail in his coffin by taking out his team mate in British GP of 2017. People like Kvyat, Grosjean and Magnussen doesn't belong on the track. They hardly have a racing awareness and not jut that they wreck their own races, they wreck others who are at no fault of their own.

Fernando has been starting races in the midfield to tail in the past 4 years and how many times have we seen him screwing someone at the start or on lap one? How many times he himself gets screwed at the start? How many times he has that struggling McLaren in points, where it clearly didn't belong? That is the kind of driver every team wants and unfortunately, Red Bull is out of depth in their own junior ranks and are going back to a driver who was so mercilessly laid off, rightly so.

Drivers like Jaime Alguersuari and Jean-Éric Vergne were actually top class and they were unceremoniously laid off and a highly rated Antonio Felix da Costa was not even considered, who was primed to take the seat vacated by Ricciardo at STR for 2014, when out of sheer surprise, Danil Kvyat was promoted.

This is what Marko spoke of da Costa and Kvyat.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gerichtet/
Helmut Marko - 25.10.2013 wrote:According to Marko, the result of an analysis of the three candidates Daniil Kvyat, Antonio Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz junior clearly spoke for the new Toro Rosso driver: "Kvyat offers us the best overall package, proving that he can handle pressure Did we miss out on da Costa? If he's already weakening in the junior series, how should it be in Formula One? "

"I do not have to tell you how many riders have been sold as a great talent before they failed at the top, with Kvyat showing a very steep uphill form last time, as it went down or flat on da Costa."

BwajSF
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by BwajSF » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:01 am

GPR -A wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:28 am
People like Kvyat, Grosjean and Magnussen doesn't belong on the track. They hardly have a racing awareness and not jut that they wreck their own races, they wreck others who are at no fault of their own.
I think u missed crashtappen out of the list.. :P hehehe

foneFanatiq
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by foneFanatiq » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:27 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:55 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:16 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:10 am
Well Honda is a vulnerable power unit. As proven for the last 4yrs. Of the the 2 teams running that power unit, Toro Rosso have Albon and Kvyat, whereas Red Bull have Max and Gasly.

So I'd say he's spot on.
The STR14 is going to be the RB15Lite.

Honda used all of 2018 as an in season test, and had no intention of holding to 3 engines, just constant iteration.

Kvyat is capable of podiums as his RBR record shows.

I think STR has everything in 2019 to be a huge surprise. I mean, look at how well Haas had gone, and the expectation is that RBR will help STR at a level that Ferrari couldn't help Haas.

If the RBR clone that is operated by STR can be within 2 tenths over a lap to the senior team, they can definitely reach for 4th in the constructors.
I see what you're saying, but you could easily say Honda have had 4yrs of testing and have still been under performing, Kvyat was thrown out by Red Bull and Toro Rosso before and only came back in my opinion because Toro Rosso had no one else to take.

I'm not saying that Toro Rosso can't surprise, I'm just saying everything GPR-A said was pretty accurate. Honda and the 2 Toro Rosso drivers have had more failure than success in the Hybrid era.
To be Honest, Honda have only really had this year to develop the power unit they wanted to develop because of the Mclaren years Honda were forced to conform to mclaren's needs over power unit development.

subcritical71
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by subcritical71 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:51 pm

foneFanatiq wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:27 pm
To be Honest, Honda have only really had this year to develop the power unit they wanted to develop because of the Mclaren years Honda were forced to conform to mclaren's needs over power unit development.
To be honest I highly doubt that RB or TR do not have design constraints themselves that need to be worked around (and vice versa). McLaren and Honda were not blamed until the finger pointing started. Time will only tell. Some relationships simply do not work, it doesn't matter how many talented people you have on each side.

foneFanatiq
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by foneFanatiq » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 pm

True. But it was said when developing the STR13 that they were building the car around the PU. Honda could design or do whatever and Toro Rosso would build around it, giving Honda a lot more opportunities to make the PU how they initially wanted it.

To be honest I highly doubt that RB or TR do not have design constraints themselves that need to be worked around (and vice versa). McLaren and Honda were not blamed until the finger pointing started. Time will only tell. Some relationships simply do not work, it doesn't matter how many talented people you have on each side.
[/quote]

subcritical71
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by subcritical71 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:24 pm

foneFanatiq wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 pm
True. But it was said when developing the STR13 that they were building the car around the PU. Honda could design or do whatever and Toro Rosso would build around it, giving Honda a lot more opportunities to make the PU how they initially wanted it.

To be honest I highly doubt that RB or TR do not have design constraints themselves that need to be worked around (and vice versa). McLaren and Honda were not blamed until the finger pointing started. Time will only tell. Some relationships simply do not work, it doesn't matter how many talented people you have on each side.
[/quote]

I get what you are saying, but history is always 20/20 and the future not so much. Before the start of the 2015 season this was reported;
Honda’s head of motorsport, Yasuhisa Arai, said: “As you can see with the new MP4-30, we’ve dedicated ourselves as one team with McLaren to creating a new car that compromises on nothing – either power or aerodynamics.

“Yet, in the midst of the excitement, both myself and our engineers are 100% focused in both Sakura and Milton Keynes to prepare for Jerez and beyond. We’re confident that the technology is there and I’m looking forward to see how it will perform.

McMrocks
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by McMrocks » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:56 am

There is a very interesting article from AMuS today.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nstellung/

There are some interesting statements from the author and a lot of interesting stuff that Andy Green is saying:
-Andy Green: "When we put the car in the wind tunnel after the rule changes, the car looked really terrible" "We are talking about a loss of several seconds of lap time."

German:
„Das Auto hat echt übel ausgesehen, als wir es erstmals nach den Regeländerungen in den Windkanal gestellt haben“, erinnert sich Green.
„Wir sprechen da von einem Verlust von mehreren Sekunden, was die Rundenzeit angeht.
-Andy Green: "The learning curve is steep. But we can't tell for sure if we are ever able to regain the loss [of downforce]

German:
„Die Lernkurve ist steil. Ob wir den Verlust aber jemals komplett wieder gutmachen können, lässt sich noch nicht sagen.“
-Article states that the clean airflow towards the diffuser and "the wing elements" (not stated if front or rear wing, but rear wing makes more sense) will be the defining challenge

-Article states that a high-rake concept could need a rethink as it gets harder to seal the diffuser.
-Andy Green: "We wondered for a long time if the desire for a lot of rake is the correct path for the future"

German:
„Wir haben uns die Frage lange gestellt, ob unser Wunsch nach einer hohen Anstellung der richtige Weg für die Zukunft ist“
-Article says that if the high-rake philosophy doesn't work anymore Force India, Red Bull and McLaren could be compromised the worst.



That's basically it. I tried to use my best journalistic skills to make clear which parts are actually quotes by Andy Green and which statements are interpretations by the author.

Best regards,

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by GPR -A » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:26 pm

foneFanatiq wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 pm
True. But it was said when developing the STR13 that they were building the car around the PU. Honda could design or do whatever and Toro Rosso would build around it, giving Honda a lot more opportunities to make the PU how they initially wanted it.
subcritical71 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:51 pm
To be honest I highly doubt that RB or TR do not have design constraints themselves that need to be worked around (and vice versa). McLaren and Honda were not blamed until the finger pointing started. Time will only tell. Some relationships simply do not work, it doesn't matter how many talented people you have on each side.
Both Honda and McLaren failed and failed miserably and started pointing fingers at each other. On Honda's part, it is BS to say, McLaren didn't allow them to develop the way they wanted and put constraints. You need to go back in time to read how Mercedes chassis team asked, what seemed at that time as improbable, the split the design of turbo and compressor. It was a great idea as it would help the chassis team in tight packaging and aero benefits. And the engine department took it as a challenge and came out with a monster power unit. So, it's not like you can't do it. It's all excuses for failures that Honda pointed fingers at McLaren.

Honda had one massive advantage and no other manufacturer had and that is, a full hands on access to class leading Mercedes PU that McLaren was using in 2014. While every other manufacturer worked in dark until the PU came to light in 2014, Honda exactly knew what the benchmark is and had a clear view of how that gem of PU looked like inside out. Yet, they failed.

It only took one year for Ferrari to get back on it's feet and bring a rejuvenated PU in 2015. As much as McLaren kept designing crappy chassis, Honda was equally crap on their PU part and it was a divorce of convenience and a blame game to save face.

It's been 6 years for Honda now (including the 2014 when they started building the PU) and even if cosworth would have got that kind of budgets, they would have probably built a better PU in such a time frame. Honda is still searching for reliability and power gains.

Red Bull is far more demanding and have a ruthless designer in their ranks than any other team and he would seldom compromise chassis packaging design for the sake of a PU manufacturer. He didn't do it with Mercedes (in McLaren days) or Renault (all those years) and I highly doubt if he would give that freedom to Honda either. If Honda has to survive the Red Bull pressure, they have to do in one year, what they haven't managed in six. Otherwise, by the end of 2019, there are going to be lot of noises from the usual loud mouths in RB.

TAG
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by TAG » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:15 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:26 pm
Honda had one massive advantage and no other manufacturer had and that is, a full hands on access to class leading Mercedes PU that McLaren was using in 2014. While every other manufacturer worked in dark until the PU came to light in 2014, Honda exactly knew what the benchmark is and had a clear view of how that gem of PU looked like inside out. Yet, they failed.
There is nothing more to say here. Honda already failed, it's now just a question of whether or not they can save face. McLaren's failures started in 2012.

I do hope for a good Red Bull Honda marriage as a three way fight or hell, a fight between Verstappen and Hamilton would be entertaining in a big way.
Countdown to 91: 11 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wouter
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by Wouter » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:30 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:26 pm
It's been 6 years for Honda now (including the 2014 when they started building the PU) and even if cosworth would have got that kind of budgets, they would have probably built a better PU in such a time frame. Honda is still searching for reliability and power gains.

2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 are 5 years, NOT 6.

Honda started with a new concept in 2017, so they have been working on that engine for 2 years now and they made a lot of progress.
Btw, every engine builder is still searching for reliability and powergains, that's called development.

Despite recent reports suggesting Honda had discovered a new vibration problem when testing its 2019 engine, it is understood that the manufacturer has not experienced a major setback although is hoping to make more progress with the development before testing begins.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... e/4321700/

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by Manoah2u » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 am

1. Mercedes
2. RedBull
3. Renault
4. Ferrari
5. Sauber
6. Renault
7. Haas
8. Racing Point
9. Toro Rosso
10. Williams
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

LM10
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by LM10 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:14 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 am
1. Mercedes
2. RedBull
3. Renault
4. Ferrari
5. Sauber
6. Renault
7. Haas
8. Racing Point
9. Toro Rosso
10. Williams
Come on, we're all gonna see the consequences of Mattia getting team principle. I'm not sure about this being a good idea either, but 4th after Renault? :roll:

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 performance speculation

Post by GPR -A » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:35 am

Wouter wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:30 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:26 pm
It's been 6 years for Honda now (including the 2014 when they started building the PU) and even if cosworth would have got that kind of budgets, they would have probably built a better PU in such a time frame. Honda is still searching for reliability and power gains.

2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 are 5 years, NOT 6.

Honda started with a new concept in 2017, so they have been working on that engine for 2 years now and they made a lot of progress.
Btw, every engine builder is still searching for reliability and powergains, that's called development.

Despite recent reports suggesting Honda had discovered a new vibration problem when testing its 2019 engine, it is understood that the manufacturer has not experienced a major setback although is hoping to make more progress with the development before testing begins.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... e/4321700/
Pirre Gasly was bolted a new ICE in Mexico and that was taken out under parc ferme in Abu Dhabi after qualifying and was replaced with an old ICE, which then failed in the race. That is the condition of the reliability at the end of November 2018. They sure must be doing some miracles to be at 5 PU elements that Marko has been talking about for 2019. Because the rate of reliability at which they finished the 2018 season, they might need another 8 to 9 PUs to finish 2019.