Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

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Morteza
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by Morteza » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

dans79
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by dans79 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 pm

I find this very hard to believe, even cutting edge FDM carbon composites can't hold a candle to what traditional methods can accomplish.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by Mr.G » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:50 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 pm
I find this very hard to believe, even cutting edge FDM carbon composites can't hold a candle to what traditional methods can accomplish.
It may be for the titanium parts...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by dans79 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:56 pm

Mr.G wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:50 pm
It may be for the titanium parts...
The article is pretty specific about it being related to composite components.
This new type of 3D printing actually uses a material with similar properties to carbon fibre, enabling Ferrari to make actual parts for their car at a speed unprecedented in F1 car manufacturing. It is rumoured to be up to ten times faster than the normal process of making moulds, laying sheets of carbon fibre and then heating by use of an autoclave oven.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by Mr.G » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:05 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:50 pm
It may be for the titanium parts...
The article is pretty specific about it being related to composite components.
This new type of 3D printing actually uses a material with similar properties to carbon fibre, enabling Ferrari to make actual parts for their car at a speed unprecedented in F1 car manufacturing. It is rumoured to be up to ten times faster than the normal process of making moulds, laying sheets of carbon fibre and then heating by use of an autoclave oven.
May be (as this is rumor) somebody just misunderstood with the name of the best 3D printers companies
- https://www.carbon3d.com
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

dans79
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by dans79 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:58 pm

Mr.G wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:05 pm
May be (as this is rumor) somebody just misunderstood with the name of the best 3D printers companies
- https://www.carbon3d.com

Maybe, but that still pretty far away form what the article is hinting at.
Recently at the mandatory crash test in the CSI laboratories of Bollate, present was the technical delegate of the FIA Jo Bauer. Not a normal thing for the sports governing body to do and the reasons for their attendance became clear later on.

Ferrari has employed a new method of construction using a process similar to 3D printing. 3D printing is not new in F1, in fact, most teams use the technique to rapid prototype new performance parts for their cars at 1 to 1 scale and for the smaller scale wind tunnel models. Although there are some exceptions, most of these 3D printed parts are not structural or raced.
The article is strongly suggesting that the team has found a way to 3D print structural components, instead of using traditional molded carbon fiber methods.As I said a little while ago, that's highly unlikely.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by aral » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm

There is no way that the possibility should be dismissed. Just because anyone doubts the report, it is no reason to dismiss the comments. F1 is at the cutting edge of technology and it is known that CF does not need to be "laid up". Lambo are using machined CF, so why not 3d printed?

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by AngelicPrincess » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:58 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:05 pm
May be (as this is rumor) somebody just misunderstood with the name of the best 3D printers companies
- https://www.carbon3d.com

Maybe, but that still pretty far away form what the article is hinting at.
Recently at the mandatory crash test in the CSI laboratories of Bollate, present was the technical delegate of the FIA Jo Bauer. Not a normal thing for the sports governing body to do and the reasons for their attendance became clear later on.

Ferrari has employed a new method of construction using a process similar to 3D printing. 3D printing is not new in F1, in fact, most teams use the technique to rapid prototype new performance parts for their cars at 1 to 1 scale and for the smaller scale wind tunnel models. Although there are some exceptions, most of these 3D printed parts are not structural or raced.
The article is strongly suggesting that the team has found a way to 3D print structural components, instead of using traditional molded carbon fiber methods.As I said a little while ago, that's highly unlikely.

What I think you are dismissing, is the possibility to 3D print moulds instead of the traditional machining method for some smaller parts that can accelerate the composite manufacturing process.

The reason that machined and printed CFRP don't exhibit as good mechanical properties as traditionally laid up ones is because of fiber discontinuity in the first two. Continuous fibers are what give laid up CFRP composites their superior specific strength.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by dans79 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:15 pm

aral wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm
so why not 3d printed?
You can print carbon fiber already in two ways that I'm aware of.

One way is with a filament that contains CF strands.

For example this is a pretty high end aerospace grade prototyping filament. $850 USD/KG
https://www.3dxtech.com/carbonx-carbon- ... -filament/

The issue with it, is that the strands of CF are less than a mm in length normally. Thus while the final part is stronger than the base polymer, its nothing like a part made from continuous fibers.

The next level up is a system like this one. Filament like the above is used, but continuous strands of filament are also laid down in the part. This is a consumer grade machine, but the concepts are the same as high end machines.


This is stronger than the previous methods, and the base polymer, but again nothing like a traditionally manufactured carbon composite.


The underlying issues with 3d printing CF are as follows:
  • To 3d print with fiberglass, carbon fiber, or Aramid, you have to use a thermoplastic polymer. Thermoplastic polymers are generally not as stiff as Thermoset polymers, and not as temperature resistant.
  • The FDM process builds up parts by slicing the part into layers along the Z axis. This is a fundamental issue that is very limiting. Most CF parts have fibers that move through the X, Y, & Z axis to maximize the parts performance.
  • Even with cutting edge tech you still can't get the fiber to polymer ratio/density you can with high end pre-preg that's been cooked in an autoclave.

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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by dans79 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:26 pm

AngelicPrincess wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 pm
What I think you are dismissing, is the possibility to 3D print moulds instead of the traditional machining method for some smaller parts that can accelerate the composite manufacturing process.
I'd bet you can still machine a plastic mold from a solid block faster than you could print one. Take a look at this as a random example.



I could easily see them 3d print small non structural parts.

DCM
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by DCM » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:08 am

I could easily see them using relatively cheap, easy to change 3D printed parts as mock ups to test fitment, as molds for manufacturing etc. Especially for small intricate pieces etc. I would think it would speed up part refinement quite a bit.

bosyber
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by bosyber » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:39 am

But isn't everyone already doing that?

And also, why would you need rapid prototyping with the chassis, a component that probably changes the least of all car parts? I guess the S-duct parts in the nose might be candidates, but otherwise I'd be quite surprised.

Big Tea
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by Big Tea » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:03 pm

Big stuff on the horizon guys. Slightly ot here, but as many seem to share the interest...

https://www.space.com/39790-made-in-spa ... cords.html

California-based Made In Space earned a Guinness World Record for "World’s Longest 3D Printed Nonassembled Piece," company representatives announced Thursday (Feb. 22).

That piece is a beam 123 feet 8.25 inches (37.7 meters) long, and it now hangs from the ceiling at Made In Space's facility in Moffett Field, California, on the campus of NASA's Ames Research Center

It is constantly improving, so I think a matter of when rather than if.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

outsid3r
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by outsid3r » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:44 pm

Ferrari seem to have already been using some kind of other composite - possibly 3d printed - for aerodynamic parts in 2018. They might have took it a step further this year in using the same materials/techniques on structural parts...

Quoting myself from last year:

outsid3r wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:13 pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXwtpcBXkAoSRrq.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXwtpcdXcAAU-S5.jpg

Are they using some kind of plastic composite for the "fins" (for the lack of a better word) in the bottom part of the bargeboards?
- They are matte black and it doesn't make sense painting these while leaving several other parts in this area showing naked carbon
- Stone chips/Debris seems to be showing a white material underneath

AngelicPrincess
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

Post by AngelicPrincess » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:42 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:26 pm
AngelicPrincess wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 pm
What I think you are dismissing, is the possibility to 3D print moulds instead of the traditional machining method for some smaller parts that can accelerate the composite manufacturing process.
I'd bet you can still machine a plastic mold from a solid block faster than you could print one. Take a look at this as a random example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1zCNjCFJhc


I could easily see them 3d print small non structural parts.
And you would be right if aero parts were simple to machine. When the parts you are trying to make are complex with no flats for machining setup, parts that need multiple setups to machine. Additive manufacturing methods are far quicker. Due to NDAs I cant post any comparison data unfortunately.