New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Sebp
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by Sebp » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:46 pm

What a load of bollocks.
Left foot braking was around well before flappy paddle gearboxes.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/left ... aking.html
Chapman's answer to Peterson's requests was to design the 1974 Lotus T76 with a Y-Shaped brake pedal, the branches of which lay either side of the steering column. Thus the brakes were available to either foot.
Edit: And who the heck is Joe Verstappen? :D
No smartphone was involved in creating this message.

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:03 pm

munudeges wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:08 pm
alesifan wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:50 am
Thoughts?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/kids/other/ne ... li=BBqdg4K
Seen it. Utter rubbish. Senna knew about left foot braking as much as anyone and was one of the first drivers to really be an exponent of keeping the throttle in through corners.

We all know Benetton had traction control and we know they cheated. France 94 when Schumacher pathetically claimed his joke lightning start was as a result of experimenting with a new clutch nailed that one down, as well as the FIA having located where the software was activated. Renault also did a lot of acoustic analysis and they were convinced.

Frankly, who can blame them? They were ruthlessly ambitious, but you see your main rival with the ability to produce a better chassis, better resources and a much better and more powerful engine than you that you'll never get and they then sign Ayrton Senna. What are you going to do?
Can / anyone else tell me how to post a photo here, I want to show you a few things, which are strictly related to the topic post and nothing else?
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com

nokivasara
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by nokivasara » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:30 pm

Sebp wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:46 pm
What a load of bollocks.
Left foot braking was around well before flappy paddle gearboxes.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/left ... aking.html
Chapman's answer to Peterson's requests was to design the 1974 Lotus T76 with a Y-Shaped brake pedal, the branches of which lay either side of the steering column. Thus the brakes were available to either foot.
Edit: And who the heck is Joe Verstappen? :D
And in the world of rallying way way before anyone even thought of paddles for shifting.
When SAAB rallied with their 2-stroke FWD model 92's starting in the 50's the drivers already used left foot braking. Rauno Aaltonen and Eric Carlsson probably were the first to use this technique.

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:06 pm

Since no-one is helping me post photos here and frankly it is virtually impossible to explain things without referring to certain images & I don't want to fall foul of any self promotional rules. See post #46 in this Autosport Forum thread; https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2120 ... g-scandal/ ...To clarify this Autosport forum is not owed or affiliated with me in any way.

Alternatively if anyone has the 13/1/94 Autosport please see small article on page 7 about the Mclaren changing from 3 to 2 pedals. :wink:
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:42 pm

Sebp wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:46 pm
What a load of bollocks.
Left foot braking was around well before flappy paddle gearboxes.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/left ... aking.html
Chapman's answer to Peterson's requests was to design the 1974 Lotus T76 with a Y-Shaped brake pedal, the branches of which lay either side of the steering column. Thus the brakes were available to either foot.
Edit: And who the heck is Joe Verstappen? :D
There are different types of LFB. One through high speed corners and one through heavy braking zones. Most F1 drivers can do the high speed one even with a 3 pedal layout, because you tend not to need the clutch pedal through a high speed corner. The one you are referring to with Ronnie Peterson comes under that, because that 1974 Lotus would have had 3 pedals (the clutch being the 3rd).


Here is Blundell referring to the the LFB under heavy braking;
“If you’re a right foot braker that’s where your power output was on the brake pedal and you would use your left leg as a brace in the cockpit. To then try and achieve the same physical power output on the brake pedal using your left leg, (whilst carrying some throttle with your right foot) and still get the right feel in modulating both pedals that’s quite a difficult process to learn and your body’s got to learn that as well.”

This is what the OP theory is referring too because it is impossible to do this with 3 pedals! FYI F1 drivers applied 930kg of (brake) pedal load per lap around the Montreal circuit and experienced up to 5G of force when decelerating.

Tell me how to post photos here, and I'll show you some (non self promotional) images proving things.
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com

djones
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by djones » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Trying to drag this up from so long ago is pretty pathetic imo.

What is the purpose? To devalue Schumacher?

Even if they had a trick on the car he went on to win 6 more championships.

Pretty much every year a team will have something illegal... just not detectable. Flexing wings etc etc.

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:00 pm

djones wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm
Trying to drag this up from so long ago is pretty pathetic imo.

What is the purpose? To devalue Schumacher?

Even if they had a trick on the car he went on to win 6 more championships.

Pretty much every year a team will have something illegal... just not detectable. Flexing wings etc etc.
Is this directed at me?

I ask because the article https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/motorsp ... cUbs7Hw1-w suggests Schumacher did not use illegal devices but instead his speed was via LFB under heavy braking. Pefectly legal, and something that only him & Hakkinen could do effectively.
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com

hollus
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by hollus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:28 pm

check your PMs, alesifan.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:54 pm

Evidence LFB (under heavy braking) became a trend in 1994

Image


Evidence that Senna's FW16 at Imola had a 3 pedal layout (& its been confirmed by Hill's 1994 mechanic Paul West);

Image


Evidence Senna & Larini (whose never made accusations about this) were stood early into the braking zone of turn 1 at Aida 1994 (see pitlane markings) so were quite some way from the traction zone out of turn 1:

Image


Another F1's driver's opinion on the matter & importantly one who didn't have a vested interest. See 32:55 into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6qL7Vv ... 8#t=32m55s



My motto; "no point having a mind unless you are willing to change it." Finally thanks hollus, I appreciate your help with posting these photos. Hopefully now we can move the debate to where I was trying to get it in the opening post :P .
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com

marmer
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by marmer » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:21 pm

It seems your the only one who really wants to debate it on here tbh

WaikeCU
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by WaikeCU » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Well if nothing is officially proven, then Schumacher is still regarded a 7 times WDC and a legend.

But it's a little different than with Lance Armstrong when he admitted he used illegal substances, because back then all of the top riders were using illegal substances. To me he still is regarded as one of the best in the cycling world, because of that.

In F1 you could hardly say that every team in a season have cheated technically? So therefor I believe if you cheat technically in F1, You deserve to be disqualified when they found out. I wouldn't have the respect for them anymore.

Jolle
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by Jolle » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:18 pm

three paddles doesn't rule out left foot braking. The clutch, because everybody (at least all the top teams) were using paddle shifting, the clutch paddle was only used for starts from stationary (like the start and pit stops) and the left foot was used for braking. Even when they had or still have gear sticks, you start braking with your left foot, before the right foot takes over. This is and always been standerd practice with racing. Try it for yourself in your road car, it takes about five minutes to master.

its nice that you are so focused on this theory, but all evidence points in a different direction.

munudeges
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by munudeges » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:25 pm

alesifan wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:00 pm
I ask because the article https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/motorsp ... cUbs7Hw1-w suggests Schumacher did not use illegal devices but instead his speed was via LFB under heavy braking.
Which is contradicted by a ton of other evidence, namely the FIA finding the actual traction control system itself. You're not contradicting that, merely reposting the same stuff over and over. Putting that in bold isn't going to make it true either.

Left foot braking was a very well known technique long before the clutch pedal itself was eliminated, that was soon to obviously become more important once it finally was, but it simply does not explain any of the other characteristics of traction control, such as the engine note itself and traction out of corners that other teams and drivers didn't seem to have.

It's frankly a weak and rather pathetic attempt to dispel the notion that Benetton and Schumacher cheated in 94 when we have more than enough evidence that they almost certainly did. I certainly understand why they did, and with a silly change in regulations as we had in 94 someone was obviously going to do it. That's life and that's Formula 1.

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:54 pm

Jolle wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:18 pm

its nice that you are so focused on this theory, but all evidence points in a different direction.
Willem Toet, Benetton's Head of Aero in 94 & Mark Blundell F1 driver in 1994 have both made on the record comments both in that article and somewhere else, which I am forbidden from mentioning that they support this theory.

If that is a lie, not doubt they will sue. So let's see if that will happen. :wink:
Last edited by alesifan on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com

alesifan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

Post by alesifan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:23 pm

munudeges wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:25 pm
Which is contradicted by a ton of other evidence, namely the FIA finding the actual traction control system itself.
"the best evidence is that Benetton Formula Ltd. was not using "launch control" (an automatic start system) at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. Had the evidence proved they were, the World Motor Sport Council would have been invited to exclude them from the World Championship. Given the evidence available, such a course of action would obviously have been wrong."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bene ... 55/?nrt=54

Please also don't get TC & LC confused.
munudeges wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:25 pm
Left foot braking was a very well known technique long before the clutch pedal itself was eliminated,



I agree that high speed LFB like this...

Image


...was common place before the clutch was eliminated because you don't tend to use the clutch through a high speed corner. Indeed I stated that in an earlier post along with why the theory we are discussing here concerns heavy braking LFB which looks like this...

Image


Can you provide any evidence that heavy braking LFB (i.e. the 2nd trace) was possible before 1994?
munudeges wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:25 pm
when we have more than enough evidence that they almost certainly did
"Almost certainly did" is not good enough for me & as such I've spent the last 5 years researching if Benetton were guilty or innocent in order to come to a more definitive conclusion than that all based on evidence (not feeling). You can see from the images I am posting here I am not lying on that front. It's not hard to see where our conversation is heading, so I'm going to let things cool down a bit by not posting here for a while (as I did after the abuse following the OP). Perhaps a shame for people who are not comment here, but might still be interested in the images & research I am sharing. But I hope to come back in a few weeks time to post some more interesting (non self promotional) evidence mainly for them.

Worth also remember people didn't initially believe the guy who told everyone the earth was not flat. Hence why it is important in general to keep an open mind, until the evidence suggests otherwise.
Last edited by alesifan on Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Coming January 2019 a new F1 book revisiting the 1994 Benetton/Schumacher cheating allegations & politics

Website; www.1994f1.com