2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Jolle
139
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Jolle » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:36 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:04 pm
garygph wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:27 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:19 am


yes, but claire isn't frank, and these are far different times.
And if IIRC Bernie was involved in helping them and obviously that is no longer an option
exactly.

it's funny in a way, though. some articles mentioned that the 1998+ concorde agreement had a huge impact on Williams. I don't know if there's really any base to that to be honest, but, if true, then they have bernie to thank for. on the other hand though, bernie would not let them slip away and would find ways to fix things.
can't live with him, can't live without him :lol:

in all fairness though, its all fun and games, and they can theoretically blame paddy as much as they want, and all criteria like the above, but the fact remains the same: the other teams do manage. and teams like haas and force india/racing point operate(d) on a far, far, faaar smaller budget than williams. williams should be able to do better.

what puzzles me too is that, not too long ago, they managed to build their own transmission, which was innovative and the tiniest one ever, in the 2012 FW34 and '13 FW35

i mean just look at it

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4V-psqCUAASX4t.jpg:large
http://cdn-3.motorsport.com/static/img/ ... 3/s1_1.jpg
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... pfw35a.jpg

i know this gearbox was designed with the v8 and 2012 rules in mind,
but the knowledge must be still around, they should be able to reproduce this without too much of a burden i'd be inclined to believe.

or has this simply to do with the maximum amount of engines/gearboxes the team may use throughout a year and these tiny gearboxes have a higher wear and thus fail potency?

perhaps it's simple for me to say, but, i'd expect them to have those gearboxes still laying around somewhere.
can't they 'just' change the gear ratios to adapt it to the hybrids v6?

i mean, they're driving ALUMINUM gearboxes right now because they don't see the cost vs result as worthwile.
but how can an aluminum gearbox be cheaper than using a gearbox that has been invented, designed, tested, and all sorts of experience back to 2012 and 2013?
just a different philosophy. This tight rear end this way would be possible, especially with the split turbo's but the designs evolved. If you look at how wide the side pods are compared to now... plus the general understanding is that you need a clear floor. Almost all teams raise the gearbox from the floor to maximise that space.

If you put all the ducts, extra radiators that are now on top of the gearbox and put them in the side pods, you have this space.

Dr. Acula
26
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Dr. Acula » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:56 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:04 pm
i know this gearbox was designed with the v8 and 2012 rules in mind,
but the knowledge must be still around, they should be able to reproduce this without too much of a burden i'd be inclined to believe.

or has this simply to do with the maximum amount of engines/gearboxes the team may use throughout a year and these tiny gearboxes have a higher wear and thus fail potency?

perhaps it's simple for me to say, but, i'd expect them to have those gearboxes still laying around somewhere.
can't they 'just' change the gear ratios to adapt it to the hybrids v6?

i mean, they're driving ALUMINUM gearboxes right now because they don't see the cost vs result as worthwile.
but how can an aluminum gearbox be cheaper than using a gearbox that has been invented, designed, tested, and all sorts of experience back to 2012 and 2013?
Basically you answered your own question already.
The gearbox internals has to meet requirements mainly defined by the engine characteristics. The V8 were low torque high reving engines. This means for instance that you can design the inputshaft of the gearbox fairly thin because there's not much torque going through it.
Also the cars were a bit lighter which deacreases the structural stresses a bit because the gearbox itself was a load bearing part back then and the gearbox didn't had to last very long. This all together allowed such a compact design.

But let me ask something here. Did this super cool gearbox actually help Williams to get the results in?
They were 8th in 2012 and 9th in 2013 in the constructors championship. So the answer is pretty obvious, isn't it?
Cool piece of engineering, but in the end just a waste of money and time because it didn't helped. And in my opinion that's one of the things which is so wrong with Williams since years. Was the same with fly wheel-KERS they developed. Cool piece of engineering in it self, but again a wast of time and money.

roy928tt
1
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:55 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by roy928tt » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:17 am

I do agree that wonderfull pieces of elaborate engineering, whilst lovely to marvel at are not necessarily the winning difference.

Almost always it is the complete package that needs to meet a certain standard to be successful. That package including race strategy, pit crew speed etc etc.

Someone was mentioning earlier that they believed Ross Brawn was a fraud in regard to being a Technical Director, I suspect that Ross's forte as a Technical Director may not have been as the driving force of technical innovation but as being someone who could nurture that in those around him and manage to bring the best ideas onto the car whilst not offending those with less good ideas? Perhaps he was a better manager of the technical teams than he was as an innovative engineer, In my judgement the track record of cars he has been TD on is enough for me to hold him in regard.

marmer
27
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by marmer » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:05 pm

Dr. Acula wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:56 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:04 pm
i know this gearbox was designed with the v8 and 2012 rules in mind,
but the knowledge must be still around, they should be able to reproduce this without too much of a burden i'd be inclined to believe.

or has this simply to do with the maximum amount of engines/gearboxes the team may use throughout a year and these tiny gearboxes have a higher wear and thus fail potency?

perhaps it's simple for me to say, but, i'd expect them to have those gearboxes still laying around somewhere.
can't they 'just' change the gear ratios to adapt it to the hybrids v6?

i mean, they're driving ALUMINUM gearboxes right now because they don't see the cost vs result as worthwile.
but how can an aluminum gearbox be cheaper than using a gearbox that has been invented, designed, tested, and all sorts of experience back to 2012 and 2013?
Basically you answered your own question already.
The gearbox internals has to meet requirements mainly defined by the engine characteristics. The V8 were low torque high reving engines. This means for instance that you can design the inputshaft of the gearbox fairly thin because there's not much torque going through it.
Also the cars were a bit lighter which deacreases the structural stresses a bit because the gearbox itself was a load bearing part back then and the gearbox didn't had to last very long. This all together allowed such a compact design.

But let me ask something here. Did this super cool gearbox actually help Williams to get the results in?
They were 8th in 2012 and 9th in 2013 in the constructors championship. So the answer is pretty obvious, isn't it?
Cool piece of engineering, but in the end just a waste of money and time because it didn't helped. And in my opinion that's one of the things which is so wrong with Williams since years. Was the same with fly wheel-KERS they developed. Cool piece of engineering in it self, but again a wast of time and money.
perhaps the constant innovation in strange and unsual areas stems from history of teams like themselvs and plenty others getting the jump on teams by getting one part of car deisgn right.
the last time that worked to such a a degree though was brawn... since then every championship winner has had huge budgets and constant progressive improvements within the confines of the rules.
red bull who won after brawn had been building for years and still to this day are up at the top even with less engine power.
Merc look like they just won in the new engine era but lets not forget it was there engine inside brawn and they took over from brawn which was struggling due to lack of development by the end of 09. they built it up as a works team

meanwhile williams have been trying to get lucky year on year

pipex
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Location: The net

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by pipex » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 pm

Lots of aero related vacancies at Williams https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/careers/WMR

At least they are trying...
"We will have to wait and see".

Capharol
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Capharol » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:46 am

pipex wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 pm
Lots of aero related vacancies at Williams https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/careers/WMR

At least they are trying...
if i had the knowledge i would have jumped in right away
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

makecry
39
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by makecry » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:01 am

Capharol wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:46 am
pipex wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 pm
Lots of aero related vacancies at Williams https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/careers/WMR

At least they are trying...
if i had the knowledge i would have jumped in right away

Well, now you do. lol.

Capharol
16
User avatar
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Capharol » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:47 am

makecry wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:01 am
Capharol wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:46 am
pipex wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 pm
Lots of aero related vacancies at Williams https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/careers/WMR

At least they are trying...
if i had the knowledge i would have jumped in right away

Well, now you do. lol.
no my understanding of F1 is not that far, that's why i keep out of the technical threads
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

UlleGulle
0
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:31 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by UlleGulle » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:39 pm

Is the 107 percent rule still in effect? Kubica had a lap time of 106.9 percent to Hamilton.

gngr
1
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:44 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by gngr » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:39 pm

UlleGulle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:39 pm
Is the 107 percent rule still in effect? Kubica had a lap time of 106.9 percent to Hamilton.
The 107% is taken from Q1 results.

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... fying.html

wunderkind
11
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:12 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by wunderkind » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:44 pm

This is shaping up to be a truly horrible year for Williams. But there is hope, look at what Right Said Fred Vasseur did to Sauber since he was installed to run the team. Williams needs to find someone of Vasseur's calibre to turn things around and I suspect such person might be found at Mercedes-AMG or Racing Point. Claire knows there is little time left to save the team and I'm sure she will not stand in the way should the ideal candidate becomes available. If it were up to me, I'd pick Aldo Costa for the job.

Cut Kubica a little slack, it's his first race in a very long time. But I suspect he will be dismissed by Canada if he fails to deliver. He is not the old Kubica that fans had hoped. An obvious candidate to replace Kubica would be Ocon.

marmer
27
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by marmer » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:34 pm

wunderkind wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:44 pm
This is shaping up to be a truly horrible year for Williams. But there is hope, look at what Right Said Fred Vasseur did to Sauber since he was installed to run the team. Williams needs to find someone of Vasseur's calibre to turn things around and I suspect such person might be found at Mercedes-AMG or Racing Point. Claire knows there is little time left to save the team and I'm sure she will not stand in the way should the ideal candidate becomes available. If it were up to me, I'd pick Aldo Costa for the job.

Cut Kubica a little slack, it's his first race in a very long time. But I suspect he will be dismissed by Canada if he fails to deliver. He is not the old Kubica that fans had hoped. An obvious candidate to replace Kubica would be Ocon.
That's it write him off aftter one qualification in the worst car.

Also I don't think ocon would want anything to do with Williams it wouldn't increase his chances of replacing bottas. And would damage the chances if he got beat by Russell

RonDennis
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by RonDennis » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:20 pm

wunderkind wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:44 pm
This is shaping up to be a truly horrible year for Williams. But there is hope, look at what Right Said Fred Vasseur did to Sauber since he was installed to run the team. Williams needs to find someone of Vasseur's calibre to turn things around and I suspect such person might be found at Mercedes-AMG or Racing Point. Claire knows there is little time left to save the team and I'm sure she will not stand in the way should the ideal candidate becomes available. If it were up to me, I'd pick Aldo Costa for the job.

Cut Kubica a little slack, it's his first race in a very long time. But I suspect he will be dismissed by Canada if he fails to deliver. He is not the old Kubica that fans had hoped. An obvious candidate to replace Kubica would be Ocon.
Why would they replace Kubica, they won't be scoring any points this year, so it's better to take the money.

wunderkind
11
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:12 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by wunderkind » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:21 pm

marmer wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:34 pm
wunderkind wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:44 pm
This is shaping up to be a truly horrible year for Williams. But there is hope, look at what Right Said Fred Vasseur did to Sauber since he was installed to run the team. Williams needs to find someone of Vasseur's calibre to turn things around and I suspect such person might be found at Mercedes-AMG or Racing Point. Claire knows there is little time left to save the team and I'm sure she will not stand in the way should the ideal candidate becomes available. If it were up to me, I'd pick Aldo Costa for the job.

Cut Kubica a little slack, it's his first race in a very long time. But I suspect he will be dismissed by Canada if he fails to deliver. He is not the old Kubica that fans had hoped. An obvious candidate to replace Kubica would be Ocon.
That's it write him off aftter one qualification in the worst car.

Also I don't think ocon would want anything to do with Williams it wouldn't increase his chances of replacing bottas. And would damage the chances if he got beat by Russell
It's not just his performance (or the lack of performance) in the qualifying session, but the practice sessions, and his overall performance that tells me he's not the old Kubica. Let's forget the shunt to the wall at the entry of the pit lane in FP3 for a moment.

I agree, I would not release Ocon to Williams if I were Toto Wolff unless there is light at the end of the tunnel such as the appointment of a new TD, even a new team boss, at Williams. Not because fear of Ocon getting beaten by Russell. Ocon is an excellent driver, one of the best on the grid, that I'm sure.

I think Bottas will perform quite well this year after a forgettable 2018 season. He knows he must perform to stay at Mercedes so motivation is not an issue. His qualifying performance today shows he'll be right there to challenge Hamilton in the race. Also, his weakness last year was mainly down to getting all the tyres to work at the same time and he will be strong throughout this season if Mercedes engineers really have gotten on top of this problem.

Fulcrum
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:05 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Fulcrum » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:26 pm

Got to look for the positives. Russell had a good qualifying session. Build on that.

Hopefully both drivers can drive a clean race tomorrow and deliver feedback for the engineers and designers.