Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.Phil wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 12:14You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.
When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.
As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?
What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.
Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?Mclarensenna wrote:Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.Phil wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 12:14You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.
When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.
As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?
What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.
When Renault decided to join all we heard was Cyril saying that renault is so efficient they can do more with less money, less resources, less people, less less less less. He harped on this from morning to night year after year.
It was obvious this plan was never going to work then or now or ever.
He also harped for years on end how he would close the gap to the leaders on the engine side yet every year got it wrong due to low budget. He always harped how he could do more with less on the engine side.
What happens?
Last year he finally complains and winges especially about Honda resources and budget is too big and he cannot compete with Honda or even mercedes or ferrari. So he admits straight from his mouth that it seems he cannot do more with less and he was wrong all these years and years.
I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.
SmallSoldier wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 15:52Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?Mclarensenna wrote:Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.Phil wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 12:14You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.
When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.
As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?
What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.
I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.
The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.
You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.
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Under that assumption, Williams does awesome... Since even though they were last, they didn’t lose money last year.sn809 wrote:SmallSoldier wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 15:52Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?Mclarensenna wrote:
Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.
I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.
The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.
You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.
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Red Bull may spend more but "making the numbers work means to spend more but get more back in profit"
ie RB spend more money but also make more money. TR might spend less money but they don't get more back in winnings.
It’s not that I’m missing them, we just don’t have the data to know how much each sponsor pays the team... I would argue that Renault isn’t missing many sponsors if you take a look at the list of current sponsors for them.Peter1919 wrote:You are missing the sponsorship income as a factor. Renault doesn't have many sponsors compared to Red Bull who must be getting good income from Aston Martin and TAG Heur amongst others. They get these sponsors because their team is relatively successful and their brand adds value to others.
You are right... My point is that I don’t how much the rest and how much Red Bull’s sponsors pay... I guess that Red Bull’s may pay more than Renault’s... Is it enough to cover the difference? At the end does it really show who is using better their funds?Peter1919 wrote:Infiniti is the luxury car arm of Nissan and Nissan's major shareholder is Renault, RCI Bank is also owned by Renault so basically two of Renault's main sponsors are really money from the same overall pot as money from Renault Group.
Small soldier You posted so many different replies each 1 completely wrong misquoting everything i said and taking everything out of context. You also made up so many quotes and figures also completely wrong.sn809 wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 19:46SmallSoldier wrote: ↑26 Mar 2019, 15:52Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?Mclarensenna wrote:
Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.
I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.
The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.
You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.
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Red Bull may spend more but "making the numbers work means to spend more but get more back in profit"
ie RB spend more money but also make more money. TR might spend less money but they don't get more back in winnings.
My issue with your posts are that you are stuck in this assumption that Cyril is doing everything wrong and that if you swap him out for a different face but keep everything else the same, that the outcome would be very different. All you are basing everything off, are some public statements that you don't agree with it and comparing them with different teams with very different resources, budgets and outlooks. That simply doesn't work.
I never said i dislike Cyril personally. I said he is doing a terrible job and not fit for this role at all and should be replaced and gave my reasoning. There is a difference. I like my brother but he would be an even worse F1 manager than Cyril. Saying that does not mean i like my brother any less than Cyril or anybody. Some people make good f1 managers some do not. That's life. Lets see if Bahrain the Renault is any better as in Australia it was 2 seconds off pole and nowhere near the top teams.Phil wrote: ↑27 Mar 2019, 12:42My issue with your posts are that you are stuck in this assumption that Cyril is doing everything wrong and that if you swap him out for a different face but keep everything else the same, that the outcome would be very different. All you are basing everything off, are some public statements that you don't agree with it and comparing them with different teams with very different resources, budgets and outlooks. That simply doesn't work.
Perhaps you should get over your dislike for Cyril and as a kind of mental experiment, picture yourself in his shoes with the same budget constraints, the same (limited) resources and ask yourself which problems are real, which complaints have merit and what it effectively takes to compete with the might of both Ferrari & Mercedes. And while you're at it, same applies to McLaren too, as they're effectively in exactly the same position.
And lastly; what you define as "public whinging" is applying [political] pressure to the sport. It's part of the game and everyone does it. It happened when Ferrari got Mercedes fancy suspensions banned, when Mercedes and other teams questioned the legality of how Ferrari were using their battery, when other teams questioned both Mercedes and Ferrari about additives in the oil. Heck, one of the biggest political influences of the sport in the last decade was when Mercedes (among others) was pressuring F1 into using these new V6 turbos. Everyone does it, because F1 is a business.
It's impossible for you to determine if he's doing a terrible job or not, because you don't know the targets he's been given by his bosses. If Renault want to spend x amount, that is what they will spend. It has nothing to do with Cyril.Mclarensenna wrote: ↑27 Mar 2019, 13:28I never said i dislike Cyril personally. I said he is doing a terrible job and not fit for this role at all and should be replaced and gave my reasoning. There is a difference. I like my brother but he would be an even worse F1 manager than Cyril. Saying that does not mean i like my brother any less than Cyril or anybody. Some people make good f1 managers some do not. That's life. Lets see if Bahrain the Renault is any better as in Australia it was 2 seconds off pole and nowhere near the top teams.Phil wrote: ↑27 Mar 2019, 12:42My issue with your posts are that you are stuck in this assumption that Cyril is doing everything wrong and that if you swap him out for a different face but keep everything else the same, that the outcome would be very different. All you are basing everything off, are some public statements that you don't agree with it and comparing them with different teams with very different resources, budgets and outlooks. That simply doesn't work.
Perhaps you should get over your dislike for Cyril and as a kind of mental experiment, picture yourself in his shoes with the same budget constraints, the same (limited) resources and ask yourself which problems are real, which complaints have merit and what it effectively takes to compete with the might of both Ferrari & Mercedes. And while you're at it, same applies to McLaren too, as they're effectively in exactly the same position.
And lastly; what you define as "public whinging" is applying [political] pressure to the sport. It's part of the game and everyone does it. It happened when Ferrari got Mercedes fancy suspensions banned, when Mercedes and other teams questioned the legality of how Ferrari were using their battery, when other teams questioned both Mercedes and Ferrari about additives in the oil. Heck, one of the biggest political influences of the sport in the last decade was when Mercedes (among others) was pressuring F1 into using these new V6 turbos. Everyone does it, because F1 is a business.