2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
SF Engineer
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by SF Engineer » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:27 pm

factory_p wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:06 pm
SF Engineer wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm

5. SF19 has a titanium halo, F2 is steel
Incorrect, F2 has the titanium halo. F3 international has the steel halo though.
Okay, I stand corrected.
The information I had has the F2 halo weighing 12kg vs the SF at 8kg.
I could be wrong as I have never worked on the F2 car, only seen the manual.

yelistener
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by yelistener » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:46 am

Comparing SF 2017 pole to 2015 & 2016 F1 poles, SF actually had better cornering speeds. F1(2014-2016) wins mainly because of the crazy acceleration and straight-line speeds.




2019 SF Rd1 pole is 1:36.060. I did some rough comparison and 2019 pole loses to 2017 only on straights. Cornering is about the same.


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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by Morteza » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:25 am

First race of the season at Suzuka
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

SF Engineer
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by SF Engineer » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:29 pm

Since I have a vested interest, I thought I would revive this thread.

This quote is from JJR in another topic in the F1 board:

*I have some numbers from Peter Wright,. He made plot of downforce levels from 1965 to 2000 :

1968: 1000lbs@150mph - high wings
1976: 800lbs@150mph
1978: 2000lbs@150mph
1980: 3000lbs@150mph
1981: 2300lbs@150mph - skirts banned
1982: 2500lbs@150mph
1983: 2000lbs@150mph - flat bottom
1986: 2500lbs@150mph
1992: 3500lbs@150mph - peak downforce
1995: 1800lbs@150mph - stepped floor, smaller wings
2000: 2600lbs@150mph

For Tyrrell F1 cars (SAE paper from Ben Agathangelou and Mike Gascoyne) :

1989: 2200lbs@150mph
1990: 2300lbs@150mph
1991: 2450lbs@150mph
1992: 2750lbs@150mph
1993: 2450lbs@150mph
1994: 2350lbs@150mph
1995: 2050lbs@150mph
1996: 2350lbs@150mph
1997: 2500lbs@150mph*

I do not know what sort of downforce the F2 car produces (from driver comments I expect it to be slightly less than SF), but the current SF19 car produces the following (actual data off car):

2019 Super Formula: 3500lb @ 150mph (240km/h) in high downforce configuration

I hope people realize how bonkers that number is! ...
Last edited by SF Engineer on Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Santozini
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by Santozini » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:44 am

SF Engineer wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:29 pm
Since I have a vested interest, I thought I would revive this thread.

This quote is from JJR in another topic in the F1 board:

*I have some numbers from Peter Wright,. He made plot of downforce levels from 1965 to 2000 :

1968: 1000lbs@150mph - high wings
1976: 800lbs@150mph
1978: 2000lbs@150mph
1980: 3000lbs@150mph
1981: 2300lbs@150mph - skirts banned
1982: 2500lbs@150mph
1983: 2000lbs@150mph - flat bottom
1986: 2500lbs@150mph
1992: 3500lbs@150mph - peak downforce
1995: 1800lbs@150mph - stepped floor, smaller wings
2000: 2600lbs@150mph

For Tyrrell F1 cars (SAE paper from Ben Agathangelou and Mike Gascoyne) :

1989: 2200lbs@150mph
1990: 2300lbs@150mph
1991: 2450lbs@150mph
1992: 2750lbs@150mph
1993: 2450lbs@150mph
1994: 2350lbs@150mph
1995: 2050lbs@150mph
1996: 2350lbs@150mph
1997: 2500lbs@150mph*

I do not know what sort of downforce the F2 car produces (from driver comments I expect it to be slightly less than SF), but the current SF19 car produces the following (actual data off car):

2019 Super Formula: 3500lb @ 250mph (240km/h) in high downforce configuration

I hope people realize how bonkers that number is! ...
How does that compare to nowadays DF levels for F1?

jjn9128
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by jjn9128 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:06 am

Santozini wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:44 am
How does that compare to nowadays DF levels for F1?
F1 nowadays is 5.0<CzS<5.5 (it's difficult to find/give an exact value) or up to 15kN at 150mi/hr which is ~3370lbf. I'd estimate F2 is around 75% of F1, which is up to 11kN or ~2500lbf at the same speed.

I'm not sure I believe the 3500lbf for the SF19 car, that's a CzS of 5.72, with a minimum dry weight of 670kg and proper race tyres they should be seconds a lap quicker than the F1! That said I don't know what power they output...

EDIT: looking it up the power is 405kW (~544bhp) which is around half an F1 car and 80bhp less than an F2 car. The downforce might make sense considering the laptimes! (The SF would be ~2s/lap quicker from the weight, ~0.5s/lap quicker from the downforce, and ~8.5s/lap slower from the lower power)
#aerogandalf

Santozini
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by Santozini » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:10 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:06 am
Santozini wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:44 am
How does that compare to nowadays DF levels for F1?
F1 nowadays is 5.0<CzS<5.5 (it's difficult to find/give an exact value) or up to 15kN at 150mi/hr which is ~3370lbf. I'd estimate F2 is around 75% of F1, which is up to 11kN or ~2500lbf at the same speed.

I'm not sure I believe the 3500lbf for the SF19 car, that's a CzS of 5.72, with a minimum dry weight of 670kg and proper race tyres they should be seconds a lap quicker than the F1! That said I don't know what power they output...

EDIT: looking it up the power is 405kW (~544bhp) which is around half an F1 car and 80bhp less than an F2 car. The downforce might make sense considering the laptimes! (The SF would be ~2s/lap quicker from the weight, ~0.5s/lap quicker from the downforce, and ~8.5s/lap slower from the lower power)
Thank you!

How does the SF19 produce so much DF?! Do they have venturi tunnels? They seem to have a rather simple aero package (at least when compared to 2019 F1)

Blaze1
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by Blaze1 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:17 pm

For comparison, the high downforce Indycars, (before the current chassis spec) were said to produce 6000lbs - 7000lbs of D/F at 200mph.
Last edited by Blaze1 on Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

jjn9128
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by jjn9128 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:24 pm

Blaze1 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:17 pm
For comparison, the high downforce Indycars, (before the current chassis spec) were said to produce 6000lbs - 7000lbs od D/F at 200mph.
Yeah the manufacturer aerokits were beastly, that's 5.5 to 6.3 CzS or about 4 on Cz with a frontal area of 1.5m^2, it was dropped to 5000lbf in 2018 with the lower downforce aerokit when they decided they wanted closer racing.

Image
#aerogandalf

SF Engineer
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by SF Engineer » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:58 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:06 am
Santozini wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:44 am
How does that compare to nowadays DF levels for F1?
F1 nowadays is 5.0<CzS<5.5 (it's difficult to find/give an exact value) or up to 15kN at 150mi/hr which is ~3370lbf. I'd estimate F2 is around 75% of F1, which is up to 11kN or ~2500lbf at the same speed.

I'm not sure I believe the 3500lbf for the SF19 car, that's a CzS of 5.72, with a minimum dry weight of 670kg and proper race tyres they should be seconds a lap quicker than the F1! That said I don't know what power they output...

EDIT: looking it up the power is 405kW (~544bhp) which is around half an F1 car and 80bhp less than an F2 car. The downforce might make sense considering the laptimes! (The SF would be ~2s/lap quicker from the weight, ~0.5s/lap quicker from the downforce, and ~8.5s/lap slower from the lower power)
Yes, that calculation sounds about right.

Super Formula and F1 only share 1 circuit (Suzuka), and the track conditions/lap times can change substantially due to weather and wind direction/speed. Tires and all other differences aside, the fastest qualifying lap was a 1'36.060 compared to a 1'27.760 (F1 Pole), 1'30.317 (Q2 cut) and 1'31.213 (back of the grid). So +8.3 sec from pole, +5.7 sec vs Q2 cut-off and +4.8 sec to Ericsson's P20 time.

The SF19 car maximum usable potential Cz is around 4.2 (you can make slightly more by maintaining more rake, but we rarely do).

jjn9128
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by jjn9128 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:09 pm

Santozini wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:10 pm
Thank you!

How does the SF19 produce so much DF?! Do they have venturi tunnels? They seem to have a rather simple aero package (at least when compared to 2019 F1)
Simple doesn't mean less. In the case of F1 the current complexity is designed to maintain downforce with some really aggressive rakes - where in the past they'd get a peaky load, which would make the downforce and balance unpredictable.

The F2 floor is difficult to describe it's not a venturi tunnel as you'd traditionally expect, it's flat bottomed but like a light ramp up to the rear axle line, then a more aggressive ramp afterwards. It means the suspension passes over rather than through the diffuser. It also means there are a couple of negative pressure peaks under the floor. Not sure how the SF floor differs, maybe SF Engineer could post a picture? (probably not if it's sensitive)

You can sort of see it here on the F2 car. I think the SF step is smaller than F2 too?
Image
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SF Engineer
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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by SF Engineer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:15 pm

I don't have any pics, but I have the replacement part manual diagrams:

Image
Image

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Re: 2018 F2 car vs 2019 Super Formula car

Post by jjn9128 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Interesting... looks quite different to the F2 floor. I had assumed they were closer.
#aerogandalf