2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
etusch
80
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by etusch » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:38 pm


According to the German Auto Motor und Sport, this claim belongs to a Mercedes engineer.

In the past few years, reports have been made by the media that Mercedes and Ferrari have reached four-digit horsepower.

Even this year, even with the new engine update Mercedes was claimed to exceed the
1000 horsepower threshold.

Although there is a general confusion in this regard, according to an engineer working at Mercedes, no manufacturer has yet to reach the 1000 horsepower threshold.

“No, not even Ferrari could reach it.

“We're pretty close, but I don't think we'll be able to reach it next week,” he said.
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/ureti ... i/4497828/

digitalrurouni
20
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by digitalrurouni » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:35 am

Wow I thought these were over a 1000 hp! Considering how much drag and downforce these things make and the weight of the cars and the lap records they are breaking I thought they'd have to be over a 1000 hp.

Webber2011
45
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:01 am
Location: Australia NSW

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by Webber2011 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:41 am

etusch wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:38 pm

According to the German Auto Motor und Sport, this claim belongs to a Mercedes engineer.

In the past few years, reports have been made by the media that Mercedes and Ferrari have reached four-digit horsepower.

Even this year, even with the new engine update Mercedes was claimed to exceed the
1000 horsepower threshold.

Although there is a general confusion in this regard, according to an engineer working at Mercedes, no manufacturer has yet to reach the 1000 horsepower threshold.

“No, not even Ferrari could reach it.

“We're pretty close, but I don't think we'll be able to reach it next week,” he said.
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/ureti ... i/4497828/
There were plenty of rumours going around last year that Mercedes had hit 1050, but that was supposedly ICE and everything else combined.

Does anyone know if that was true I wonder ?

It's fairly hard to find any reliable info on the net.
I actually put more faith in the info I get here, but I'm puzzled now after learning no one has hit 1000 hp 🤔

LM10
46
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by LM10 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:51 am

Webber2011 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:41 am
etusch wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:38 pm

According to the German Auto Motor und Sport, this claim belongs to a Mercedes engineer.

In the past few years, reports have been made by the media that Mercedes and Ferrari have reached four-digit horsepower.

Even this year, even with the new engine update Mercedes was claimed to exceed the
1000 horsepower threshold.

Although there is a general confusion in this regard, according to an engineer working at Mercedes, no manufacturer has yet to reach the 1000 horsepower threshold.

“No, not even Ferrari could reach it.

“We're pretty close, but I don't think we'll be able to reach it next week,” he said.
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/ureti ... i/4497828/
There were plenty of rumours going around last year that Mercedes had hit 1050, but that was supposedly ICE and everything else combined.

Does anyone know if that was true I wonder ?

It's fairly hard to find any reliable info on the net.
I actually put more faith in the info I get here, but I'm puzzled now after learning no one has hit 1000 hp 🤔
Oil burning is completely illegal this season. This might have reduced the power output for everyone.

GPR -A
84
User avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by GPR -A » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:31 am

The F1 2014 Hybrid era started with an expected power output of around 600 to 650 HP from ICE and another 150 to 160 HP from the hybrid systems within the regulations of fuel restriction. Considering those were the numbers that were coined at the beginning, it would be safe to assume Renault and Ferrari were around 750 HP cumulative output and Mercedes got an advantage and were around 800 to 820 HP.

6th year of running and even if they would have added a meager average of 50 HP every year (bigger gains in the beginning and shorter gains as they progressed), they should have breached 1000 HP already. The gains are not just from improvements on PU, but also from massive R&D that is happening on the fuel and lubricants.

Juzh
329
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by Juzh » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:45 am

GPR -A wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:31 am
they should have breached 1000 HP already.
I dont think so. Ban on oil burning must have slashed peak HP considerably. 20-30 bhp at least, based on the numbers we've been given over the years. It has brought ferrari and merc closer to honda and renault. Un-drsed cars this year are slow AF actually. Some is down to wing levels, some has come out of this oil burning ban.

ringo
227
User avatar
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by ringo » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:21 pm

The engines were never at 1,000 HP. The power is actually more modest than people think.
The peak power from the units haven't changed as drastically as some think, what has change a lot is how long the engines can run at maximum power output, and also the power band, and use of the ERS.
I suspect currently 950 hp is the most we will see from these units.
For Sure!!

sosic2121
16
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by sosic2121 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:19 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:04 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:31 pm
I don't understand why he got a race ban. I mean, if he crashed into Lewis and others dodged them, would he get the same penalty? I honestly believe he wouldn't, and that's the sad state of F1.
He got the ban and a 50,000 Euro fine, because it was a serious lapse in judgment.
  1. He was pushing a driver who he was overlapped with off the track, while on the strait. This alone is a blatant and easily avoidable rule violation.
  2. No other cars where close to him, so it can't be put down to an accident because he was distracted by other cars.
  3. it was on lap one at the first corner, when the field is the most bunched up, and at risk. Not to mention the nature of the turn imposes additional risks.
This is what the stewards had to say.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/19458954
"The stewards regard this incident as an extremely serious breach of the regulations, which had the potential to cause injury to others," read a statement from the FIA, the sport's governing body.
You also need to consider that last year he came very close to a mandatory ban.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... qaE46.html
After speaking to both men and reviewing video evidence, the stewards determined that Grosjean was at fault, but acknowledged that he had lifted and braked early in an effort to avoid contact, and hence decided to award him just the one penalty point. He has now received 10 in the past 12 months – just two short of the tally that triggers an automatic one-race ban.
Still, it's a wrong call. Basically, that penalty was given because of the name of offender and because of the consequences of the accident.

I am sure I can find half a dozen incidents where same "crime" was done but penalty was not as harsh or not given at all.

For example, if Lewis went on the grass, crash would be avoided and penalty probably would have not be given. But why!?
Why Lewis has to crash in for justice to be served!?!

This is just unfair, and it's promoting dirty driving.

drunkf1fan
40
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:34 am

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by drunkf1fan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:26 pm

Dude, it wasn't the wrong call or unfair, and no people don't do that all the time and the penalty wasn't given just because his name was Grosjean. IN fact the stewards messed up, precisely because it was Grosjean and he was doing constant idiotic things and because of the severity and danger of the situation he should have received significantly more than a one race ban.

Watch the video of it again carefully. Knowing he was coming up to a tight and slow right hand turn he not only commits an incredibly aggressive move across the track right towards Hamilton. He can see him the whole way, he is easily seeable in his mirrors or just out of the side of his car. After he moves across he then moves the wheel again, there is a definitive extra move where he just straight up turns into Hamilton on purpose. He hit Hamilton, on purpose. He could see the grass was there, he knew Hamilton had no more room, he knew by the rules he wasn't allowed to crowd into Hamilton or fail to leave Hamilton room. He tried to use his car to intimidate Hamilton and in doing saw caused a massive crash that could have killed other drivers pretty easily.

I can't remember the last time off the start anyone intentionally smashed another car just because they didn't like them being there. Pushing them to the limit, sure, pushing them to the edge and leaving space, sure, pushing them to the edge then side swiping them on purpose to scare them into backing off... no. That's miles beyond anything else. As for promoting dirty driving? What? Grosjean did something incredibly dirty and got a race ban for it while you're saying he shouldn't have been given a ban at all.

In terms of the same crime, no, even at other points in a race it's exceptionally rare for anyone to purposeful move into a position where they are on the limit then purposefully side swipe a car next to you because 9/10 times the result will be that, ruining your own race.

If Lewis went on the grass, the crash would not in any way have been avoided. he was already at a high speed, going on the grass is WHAT CAUSED THE CRASH, he ended up two wheels on the grass because Grosjean shoved him there and had to brake hard for a corner... with two wheels on track with high grip and two wheels of track with low grip. That's literally what sent Hamilton's car into a spin, hitting Grosjean which then took the rest out.

Aside from the fact that it's against the rules to leave the track without good reason, the rules categorically say that if a car is alongside on a straight you must leave a cars width and can not under any circumstances run them off the track. Blaming Hamilton for not just going onto the grass, which is actually the very thing that happened and caused the crash is honestly, insane. Also no, if there hadn't been contact and Hamilton had managed to react in lightning speed and managed to avoid the hit by moving to the grass, the exact same thing would have happened and it would still have been easily visible on video that Hamilton went onto the grass avoiding a sideswipe from Grosjean who broke the rules by doing that, it would still have been 100% Grosjean's fault.

Grosjean's one race ban was very lenient for what he did and no, that kind of action is as rare as anything in F1 and previous incidents of hitting someone on purpose in dangerous situations are rarely if ever let off.

Sorry to everyone else for ranting but that was one of the most ignorant and ridiculous 'takes' on that incident possible. Not even knowing enough to know that the crash happened because Hamilton ended up trying to brake while on the grass, thinking it would have been avoided had Hamilton just taken to the grass himself and that somehow giving him a ban for one of the most dangerous bits of driving in the past decade or two of F1 is encouraging dirty driving. It's straight up unbelievable.

Maritimer
16
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:45 pm
Location: Canada

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by Maritimer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:48 pm

ringo wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:21 pm
The engines were never at 1,000 HP. The power is actually more modest than people think.
The peak power from the units haven't changed as drastically as some think, what has change a lot is how long the engines can run at maximum power output, and also the power band, and use of the ERS.
I suspect currently 950 hp is the most we will see from these units.
People always over estimate power figures. In 2015(2016?) there were claims that the Porsche LMP1 was putting down over 1200hp combined when they likely were barely scratching 1000hp on max overtake mode. Without knowing exactly how much drag the cars are hauling around it's impossible to know what they're making.

Jolle
153
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by Jolle » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Maritimer wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:48 pm
ringo wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:21 pm
The engines were never at 1,000 HP. The power is actually more modest than people think.
The peak power from the units haven't changed as drastically as some think, what has change a lot is how long the engines can run at maximum power output, and also the power band, and use of the ERS.
I suspect currently 950 hp is the most we will see from these units.
People always over estimate power figures. In 2015(2016?) there were claims that the Porsche LMP1 was putting down over 1200hp combined when they likely were barely scratching 1000hp on max overtake mode. Without knowing exactly how much drag the cars are hauling around it's impossible to know what they're making.
The only “official” statement we had was 50% efficiency. So could we calculate an estimate from there? How much energy is in petrol?

Maritimer
16
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:45 pm
Location: Canada

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by Maritimer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:02 pm

That 50% was only ever achieved in the lab using methods and equipment the cars cant run to cool the charge air below ambient. You would need to know exact fuel and aero loads, real time efficiency, fuel composition, state of charge and electric output, air temp, humidity, pressure, and density to get an accurate figure in the real world. I'm sure someone could calculate it within say 10% if they really sat and ran the number were given but itll only ever be an educated guess without insider info.

sosic2121
16
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by sosic2121 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:47 pm

drunkf1fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:26 pm
Dude, it wasn't the wrong call or unfair, and no people don't do that all the time and the penalty wasn't given just because his name was Grosjean. IN fact the stewards messed up, precisely because it was Grosjean and he was doing constant idiotic things and because of the severity and danger of the situation he should have received significantly more than a one race ban.

Watch the video of it again carefully. Knowing he was coming up to a tight and slow right hand turn he not only commits an incredibly aggressive move across the track right towards Hamilton. He can see him the whole way, he is easily seeable in his mirrors or just out of the side of his car. After he moves across he then moves the wheel again, there is a definitive extra move where he just straight up turns into Hamilton on purpose. He hit Hamilton, on purpose. He could see the grass was there, he knew Hamilton had no more room, he knew by the rules he wasn't allowed to crowd into Hamilton or fail to leave Hamilton room. He tried to use his car to intimidate Hamilton and in doing saw caused a massive crash that could have killed other drivers pretty easily.

I can't remember the last time off the start anyone intentionally smashed another car just because they didn't like them being there. Pushing them to the limit, sure, pushing them to the edge and leaving space, sure, pushing them to the edge then side swiping them on purpose to scare them into backing off... no. That's miles beyond anything else. As for promoting dirty driving? What? Grosjean did something incredibly dirty and got a race ban for it while you're saying he shouldn't have been given a ban at all.

In terms of the same crime, no, even at other points in a race it's exceptionally rare for anyone to purposeful move into a position where they are on the limit then purposefully side swipe a car next to you because 9/10 times the result will be that, ruining your own race.

If Lewis went on the grass, the crash would not in any way have been avoided. he was already at a high speed, going on the grass is WHAT CAUSED THE CRASH, he ended up two wheels on the grass because Grosjean shoved him there and had to brake hard for a corner... with two wheels on track with high grip and two wheels of track with low grip. That's literally what sent Hamilton's car into a spin, hitting Grosjean which then took the rest out.

Aside from the fact that it's against the rules to leave the track without good reason, the rules categorically say that if a car is alongside on a straight you must leave a cars width and can not under any circumstances run them off the track. Blaming Hamilton for not just going onto the grass, which is actually the very thing that happened and caused the crash is honestly, insane. Also no, if there hadn't been contact and Hamilton had managed to react in lightning speed and managed to avoid the hit by moving to the grass, the exact same thing would have happened and it would still have been easily visible on video that Hamilton went onto the grass avoiding a sideswipe from Grosjean who broke the rules by doing that, it would still have been 100% Grosjean's fault.

Grosjean's one race ban was very lenient for what he did and no, that kind of action is as rare as anything in F1 and previous incidents of hitting someone on purpose in dangerous situations are rarely if ever let off.

Sorry to everyone else for ranting but that was one of the most ignorant and ridiculous 'takes' on that incident possible. Not even knowing enough to know that the crash happened because Hamilton ended up trying to brake while on the grass, thinking it would have been avoided had Hamilton just taken to the grass himself and that somehow giving him a ban for one of the most dangerous bits of driving in the past decade or two of F1 is encouraging dirty driving. It's straight up unbelievable.
You obviously haven't understood my point.
At no point have I blamed Hamilton for accident.

I'm just saying that penalty should fit the crime, and the crime was that he tried to push Hamilton off track!
Just like for example Magnussen did to Alonso 2014. Why didn't he received a race ban?

turbof1
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by turbof1 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 pm

Guys, girls,

I understand the comparison to Grosjean Spa 2012, but do please keep in mind to dial it back to Silverstone 2019. It's what this topic is about.
#AeroFrodo

etusch
80
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

Post by etusch » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:17 am