Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

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strad
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by strad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:56 pm

Yes,, It's a shame to say but their brakes are way too good and all pretty much equal. In the real old days before carbon some cars had better brakes than others. So certain cars would have to brake sooner than others. Way back when the Jags had a great advantage because the had disc brakes. For a long time Ferrari wouldn't put them on his F1 cars until a mechanic secretly put them on anyway and it made a huge difference.
Now we have strayed off topic.
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dans79
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by dans79 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:34 pm

Personally, i think bring back refueling could help make f1 better, but it's not a silver bullet by itself. The FIA would need to work closely with the tire supplier to ensure that multiple strategies generate roughly the same total race time.

For example I think the following restrictions could potentially make multiple strategies equally viable.
  1. no pre-allocation of tires. The supplier shows up with more than enough of each type, and the teams are only limited by how many sets they are allowed to use.
  2. You start the race with whatever set of tires you qualified on regardless of starting position.
  3. You start the race with whatever is left in your tank after qualifying. However their is a minimum and a maximum fuel load that you must abide by. Additionally fuel load can't be altered once qualifying begins.
  4. A minimum and a maximum refueling volume per stop.
  5. An adjustable refueling rate (how fast the pumps work)
  6. An adjustable pit lane speed
  7. An adjustable pit lane length (the distance between the lines where the pit lane speed must be adhered to)
#3 through #7 would be adjusted per race weekend with some amount of advanced notice for the teams. The goal would be to work with the tire supplier to ensure that multiple strategies are equally fast. Just to be clear when I say multiple I mean like 4 or 5.

Sevach
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by Sevach » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:11 pm

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pire ... 1/4497513/

Are those 2(refueling and good tires) suppoused to go together?

Honestly i wouldn't bring back refueling, i would just drop obligatory pit stops, must start in Q2 tires and any restrictive rule and let teams figure out.
If someone wants to complete the race without stops do it, if someone wants 2 stops go for it, what can be made to encourage pit stops is faster pitlane speed (it's 80 right now? 110 sounds alright) and make the limiter area a little shorter, in Silverstone it started way before where the teams were.

strad
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by strad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:27 pm

faster pitlane speed (it's 80 right now? 110 sounds alright)
Man I agree but I can hear the don't run with scissors crowd going crazy now.
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Jolle
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by Jolle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:28 am

In my memory the best races where those when the best cars for the race weren’t the best cars in qualifying, bit like RedBull are some races. They had two poles over over the 100 hybrid races but something like 12 wins. Almost all of them were exciting.
Most of the current races are won on track position so cars are almost without compromising build for one lap speed and manage the race. And managing a car like that isn’t exciting.

What would happen if we allowed changes in rear wing settings, some ride hight and camber changes and front wing flaps between Q and race and have the warm-up back? If you qualified lower on the grid you set your car up for close following and higher top speed while on front you’ll go for best lap time. Etc etc.

strad
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by strad » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:08 am

Great idea. One I've been pushing for ages. This Parc Ferme after qualifying is crazy imo.
Should be able to make changes right up till the flag flys…. or lights go out as case may be.
What purpose does the lights going out serve. Why not just have them go on green?
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zac510
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by zac510 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:16 am

That's the opposite. Having parc ferme forces the engineers to choose a compromise between either qualifying or race. If they were allowed to change the setup after qualifying you'd just get every car on quali setups and race setups. It works well when the weather changes dramatically between Saturday and Sunday, but at the moment we just have the Mercedes which is better at qualifying and racing so it makes the rule seem invalid.
They could do more to allow qualifying setups to be different to race setups, for example allowing DRS to be unlimited in qualifying, which will make them choose a different size of DRS flap.

NL_Fer
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by NL_Fer » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:33 pm

zac510 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:16 am
That's the opposite. Having parc ferme forces the engineers to choose a compromise between either qualifying or race. If they were allowed to change the setup after qualifying you'd just get every car on quali setups and race setups. It works well when the weather changes dramatically between Saturday and Sunday, but at the moment we just have the Mercedes which is better at qualifying and racing so it makes the rule seem invalid.
They could do more to allow qualifying setups to be different to race setups, for example allowing DRS to be unlimited in qualifying, which will make them choose a different size of DRS flap.
It is true, to bad the big teams have 500 computers each to simulate every setup choice in Q and race. No real surprises anymore.

roon
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by roon » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:08 pm

I wonder how many flops they invest into such computation compared to restricted CFD.

Jolle
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by Jolle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:21 pm

It’s more and more racing with a full qualifying setup these days, That’s one of the reasons cars need to keep their distance. Not just with wings and downforce, but even with cooling. Follow a car within 1.5 seconds for a few laps and everything overheats.

Sevach
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by Sevach » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:25 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:33 pm
zac510 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:16 am
That's the opposite. Having parc ferme forces the engineers to choose a compromise between either qualifying or race. If they were allowed to change the setup after qualifying you'd just get every car on quali setups and race setups. It works well when the weather changes dramatically between Saturday and Sunday, but at the moment we just have the Mercedes which is better at qualifying and racing so it makes the rule seem invalid.
They could do more to allow qualifying setups to be different to race setups, for example allowing DRS to be unlimited in qualifying, which will make them choose a different size of DRS flap.
It is true, to bad the big teams have 500 computers each to simulate every setup choice in Q and race. No real surprises anymore.
Well... one of the proposals is less telemetry.

Jolle
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by Jolle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:36 pm

Sevach wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:25 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:33 pm
zac510 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:16 am
That's the opposite. Having parc ferme forces the engineers to choose a compromise between either qualifying or race. If they were allowed to change the setup after qualifying you'd just get every car on quali setups and race setups. It works well when the weather changes dramatically between Saturday and Sunday, but at the moment we just have the Mercedes which is better at qualifying and racing so it makes the rule seem invalid.
They could do more to allow qualifying setups to be different to race setups, for example allowing DRS to be unlimited in qualifying, which will make them choose a different size of DRS flap.
It is true, to bad the big teams have 500 computers each to simulate every setup choice in Q and race. No real surprises anymore.
Well... one of the proposals is less telemetry.
Then they just beef up their sims :P

Basic problem is that the cars are so much faster alone then in traffic. And for a good race you need them close. The new proposed floor is a very good first step. Variable air intakes should be another good one and allowing to adjust wing settings another. The big teams will always be ahead of the smaller teams, but if we can get the cars that are in battle just a bit closer on track, we would of had some more epic battles on track.

Big Tea
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by Big Tea » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:49 pm

:o Interlink the sims, give it graphic representation, and stream it. They could save a fortune on actually building the cars and employing drivers and have unlimited tracks, we could even design our own and let them race on it.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

bl4zar_
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by bl4zar_ » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:57 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
bl4zar_ wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:11 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote: It's just noise, wasted energy, get over it, move on.
Totally agree, useless noises and wasted energy. Just like sex.
Were you not created by way of sex? Or are you a test tube baby?
Didn't thought I'd have needed to explain I was sarcastic.

Noises and wasted energy can be useless technically, still we seek for them constantly.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Todt wants to bring back refueling in 2021

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:31 pm

bl4zar_ wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:57 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
bl4zar_ wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:11 pm


Totally agree, useless noises and wasted energy. Just like sex.
Were you not created by way of sex? Or are you a test tube baby?
Didn't thought I'd have needed to explain I was sarcastic.

Noises and wasted energy can be useless technically, still we seek for them constantly.
I was joking back at you buddy, enjoy the race.

But I prefer on track action to wasted noise.