Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:25 pm

Jolle wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:18 pm
Indeed, it would be nice that that area could be open to atract more partners like A123, Excide, Samsung and LG into the F1.
yes absolutely and make the cars a bit lighter too, that everyone knows is an issue with the hybrids. I read somewhere that energy density with lithium-ion batteries has doubled since 2014, but they're still minimum 20kg in F1

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Agreed, a bit late maybe but I suppose they need to let go most regulations on battery design. Only the input output energy to be a maximum amount same as now. The development will especially rise in supercapacitors which I think is a much needed technology to evolve further.

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:10 am

FE batteries have doubled the capacity while increasing the weight just a bit, so they're not spec batteries with no development. But I agree it will be much better once they're free to develop

Probably they're afraid that would cause too big differences in performance, as batteries are a decisive factor in the power any electric setup can provide, and right now there's so much margin to improve it's very plausible someone could make a huge step forward and whip the floor with their rivals, what would be very harmful for FE right now

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:56 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:10 am
FE batteries have doubled the capacity while increasing the weight just a bit, so they're not spec batteries with no development. But I agree it will be much better once they're free to develop

Probably they're afraid that would cause too big differences in performance, as batteries are a decisive factor in the power any electric setup can provide, and right now there's so much margin to improve it's very plausible someone could make a huge step forward and whip the floor with their rivals, what would be very harmful for FE right now
Yes fair point, just for me personally i can't be bothered with the FE crashfest as it is so it would add some interest, as long as they had to reveal their technology. And as long as they couldn't patent it, so everyone could copy.

That would really be awesome afaic

loner
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by loner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:55 am

izzy wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:16 pm
loner wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:47 pm
Automotive supplier tests immersion-cooled batteries for EVs
The technology, called immersion cooling relies on coating the batteries with dielectric cooling gel, called MIVOLT, used as electrical insulation in other applications.
If it's successful, the technology could prolong battery life in electric cars and accept higher current rates while charging without overheating them, and potentially bring charge times down closer to the time it takes to refill a gas tank.
The i-CoBat immersion cooling project aims to reduce the size and cost of cooling systems to allow automakers to build denser battery packs without increasing the heat buildup.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... es-for-evs
Thanks. Battery technology has so much momentum now doesn't it. I wish F1 and FE would encourage it by allowing more freedom to develop the ES, instead of the weight restrictions and spec supply
well Ricardo is the supplier perhaps Mclaren is involved as well they have some very advanced electric knowledge...
para bellum.

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:36 pm

loner wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:55 am

well Ricardo is the supplier perhaps Mclaren is involved as well they have some very advanced electric knowledge...
yes I noticed Ricardo and I'm sure they're pretty good, especially at the start of the season. But the batteries don't get developed, that we get told about, because they have to be 20kg in F1 and they're all the same in FE. It could be so much more interesting. I mean probably F1 teams are interested in immersion cooling with gel, that sounds ideal, it'd be nice if they had to tell us and if they could do lighter batteries. And it's not as if Mercedes, Fiat, Renault and Honda can't afford a little development war about it, or just be allowed to use what they're probably doing already

Ferry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Ferry » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:59 pm

henry wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:40 pm
Do they have much snow in Norway?
Yes we have! And ice. And mountains. And lots of EVs. I find the electric driveline far superior in low grip conditions. I've been driving for 30 years under these conditions, different cars, gasoline, diesel, RWD, FWD, AWD. Especially with wet snow there is a rather big advantage being able to go super slow uphill. Compacting the snow under the tires slowly without wheelspin. With traditional cars I most times had to back down all the way to a flatter part of the road to be able to get going again. With the EV I can often back just a few meters and then try again. It's far smoother torque delivery. And the traction control and stability control is super quick to react.

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:07 pm

Apparently the UK now has more charging points than petrol stations

Bit of a fiddle probably counting individual chargers vs whole petrol stations, but still it shows momentum is building

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:30 pm

Wanted to post this in the UK car thread but since it's now closed for a while it might be appropriate here..


Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Greg Locock » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:43 am

For long distance journeys you need 1 charger for every 15 EVs, as a rule of thumb.

henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:05 am

Greg Locock wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:43 am
For long distance journeys you need 1 charger for every 15 EVs, as a rule of thumb.
Depends what you mean by long. In the U.K. official statistics long is 50+ miles. It also depends on the EV range.

Care to say who’s thumb this is?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:19 am

Deciding on charger numbers and placement will present a considerable challenge. If left to market forces it’s likely to be sub optimal. That is it won’t really meet society’s needs since the goal will be profit by meeting the needs of those who can pay most. Just like phone coverage and broadband.

For those who can have home chargers I would think a key metric would be home to home cumulative journey distance. In my own case around 90% of my journeys can be serviced in this way but only about 75% of the miles.

I run a VW and they gave me, free of charge, a journey monitoring device. I thought I might get some useful statistics from it, such as the above home to home. But no, I can’t dump it’s data and the customer facing analysis provided by VW is useless. However I’m sure VW are collecting large amounts of data from their customer base to understand things like the range mix they should be offering with their EV line up.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Jolle » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:19 am

With charging EV's you have to forget about how we use petrol fuel stations.
With petrol engines we refuel when we're running out of petrol, almost always while we on route. EV's can charge while we are not on route. This way you start your journey almost always with a 100% charge.

henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:25 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:19 am
With charging EV's you have to forget about how we use petrol fuel stations.
With petrol engines we refuel when we're running out of petrol, almost always while we on route. EV's can charge while we are not on route. This way you start your journey almost always with a 100% charge.
There are many ways in which we might need to change our thinking. Starting each journey with 100% may be replaced with starting with a percentage required dependant on previous journey patterns, planned and scheduled activities, priority of battery life versus availability and many I can’t imagine right now. Cars will become part of the integrated home managed to meet your needs and lifestyle.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Jolle » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:05 pm

henry wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:25 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:19 am
With charging EV's you have to forget about how we use petrol fuel stations.
With petrol engines we refuel when we're running out of petrol, almost always while we on route. EV's can charge while we are not on route. This way you start your journey almost always with a 100% charge.
There are many ways in which we might need to change our thinking. Starting each journey with 100% may be replaced with starting with a percentage required dependant on previous journey patterns, planned and scheduled activities, priority of battery life versus availability and many I can’t imagine right now. Cars will become part of the integrated home managed to meet your needs and lifestyle.
Also, the way we use and demand electrical power. Up til now, most is on demand, putting up a lot of stress on the power grid. EV's could be used to balance out the grid to keep the power more stable.