2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Scorpaguy
10
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:05 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Scorpaguy » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:38 am

I have noticed a very different Kub after his 2020 announcment. His Sochi post race comments reeked of thinly veiled disgust for his situation. Whether that disgust was due to an inept team, eroded skills, or prodigy teammate is all a bit speculation. However, I suspect he is eager to leave and believes DTM will be better.

Kub is a literal speaker. His comment about Sochi being his worst race weekend ever is a damning remark considering his history...I recall a rally weekend that almost killed him. What figuratively kills me is the fact that this Kub fan may never know if a successful F1 comeback could have been possible given a real chance. Although one cannot believe all the conspiracy theories...being given a slow car late in the year and having to retire early for fear of adequate parts in the future...certainly is not a real chance.

Webber2011
46
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:01 am
Location: Australia NSW

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Webber2011 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:28 am

Scorpaguy wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:38 am
I have noticed a very different Kub after his 2020 announcment. His Sochi post race comments reeked of thinly veiled disgust for his situation. Whether that disgust was due to an inept team, eroded skills, or prodigy teammate is all a bit speculation. However, I suspect he is eager to leave and believes DTM will be better.

Kub is a literal speaker. His comment about Sochi being his worst race weekend ever is a damning remark considering his history...I recall a rally weekend that almost killed him. What figuratively kills me is the fact that this Kub fan may never know if a successful F1 comeback could have been possible given a real chance. Although one cannot believe all the conspiracy theories...being given a slow car late in the year and having to retire early for fear of adequate parts in the future...certainly is not a real chance.
Totally agree mate.

It's not much of a future either, so I don't blame him for being a bit terse with his comments.

Robert didn't come back to F1 to be the handicapped guy rolling around at the back of the grid, he wanted to taste fighting up the front again.
He deserves much better treatment than he is getting this year.

Williams is the Team I've been following ever since I discovered F1and I hate to say it, but they are in some pretty deep shite if they don't get bailed out in some form soon 😢

Manoah2u
383
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Manoah2u » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:10 pm

Scorpaguy wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:38 am
I have noticed a very different Kub after his 2020 announcment. His Sochi post race comments reeked of thinly veiled disgust for his situation. Whether that disgust was due to an inept team, eroded skills, or prodigy teammate is all a bit speculation.
i think it's pretty clear that it is Williams.

He mentioned the goal is still F1, so if that's still the goal, there's no way it's that he is dissatisfied with himself.
I also believe Kubica to be the guy to simply and honestly state that and just let it go. That's not the case,
so i am confident the problem is he fell for Williams, a bunch of thieves and liars.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

tomazy
155
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:01 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by tomazy » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:05 am

Did Kubica ever saied why he didnt get a drive in a more honest team? Did they not want his money? Or just maybe, he is not good enough for others? I dont get why everybody is beeing so negative to a team that made his return posible.

marmer
33
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by marmer » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:45 am

tomazy wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:05 am
Did Kubica ever saied why he didnt get a drive in a more honest team? Did they not want his money? Or just maybe, he is not good enough for others? I dont get why everybody is beeing so negative to a team that made his return posible.
There wasn't that many actual seats open for a new driver. He only missed out on the Renault drive when they got sainz. He is not the right fit for Toro rosso

Looking at new drivers this year
Alfa Romeo forced givo and Kimi is a better option than kubica
McLaren got sainz (proven) and Norris youth prospect.
Williams where the only side going with a free seat

netoperek
43
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:06 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:50 am

marmer wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:45 am
tomazy wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:05 am
Did Kubica ever saied why he didnt get a drive in a more honest team? Did they not want his money? Or just maybe, he is not good enough for others? I dont get why everybody is beeing so negative to a team that made his return posible.
There wasn't that many actual seats open for a new driver. He only missed out on the Renault drive when they got sainz. He is not the right fit for Toro rosso

Looking at new drivers this year
Alfa Romeo forced givo and Kimi is a better option than kubica
McLaren got sainz (proven) and Norris youth prospect.
Williams where the only side going with a free seat
Then again, Williams didn't want money from Robert for a seat when he started with them a year back. It was only just before the season started, that Williams turned for Sirotkin when SMP Racing threw cash at the table. Robert has been hired as a reserve/development driver with a fat paycheck, so he hasn't been considered a pay driver by any standard back then. The only real alternative was Renault, which went for a double deal with Sainz - a proven driver as has been said and an engine deal with McLaren. In Renault testing Robert has supposedly been at Hulk's pace from the start, so it wasn't strictly performance related decision. For some time Hulk even though Robert's going to be his new teammate, that much Renault has been milking comeback story attention as long as they could. Later on it became obvious where Williams priorities are, so Robert managed to find himself a financial backing to get a drive.

Lotus102
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Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:29 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Lotus102 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:27 pm

Not sure Renault were remotely serious about giving Kubica a race seat once they’d tested him a few times. I don’t think it was as if he narrowly missed out to Sainz. RK had backing to pay for the Williams seat in 2018, IIRC from Lotos which in the intervening period was bought out by Orlen. Williams tested him several times and as soon as they had a possibility of a driver who was not only faster but brought more backing, it was a total no brainer. Kubica may have been paid something by Williams to act as reserve driver (I would be very surprised if it was a ‘fat’ paycheque) but he also wore Lotos logos on his team kit so evidently at least part of his paycheque in 2018 was coming from the sponsor. As far as I read it, two teams took a good look at Kubica for 2018 and decided to go elsewhere, Williams only putting him in a race seat when it was blindingly obvious that they had no other options who would pay for the seat. I really don’t see that he would have shown massively better in a different team. He was demolished by a rookie teammate this year, and has shown not even the odd flashes of speed that we got from Sirotkin and Stroll. The harsh truth us that everything was against him. Nobody has been away from F1 as long and made any kind of comeback, let alone a successful one. The number of comebacks that work are vanishingly few - Lauda in ‘84 was the only one that had any kind of success - and most are embarrassing failures, even before you factor in the life limiting injuries. The chances of it working out were tiny. Sad, but this was a mistake

netoperek
43
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:06 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:19 am

Lotus102 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:27 pm
Not sure Renault were remotely serious about giving Kubica a race seat once they’d tested him a few times. I don’t think it was as if he narrowly missed out to Sainz. RK had backing to pay for the Williams seat in 2018, IIRC from Lotos which in the intervening period was bought out by Orlen. Williams tested him several times and as soon as they had a possibility of a driver who was not only faster but brought more backing, it was a total no brainer. Kubica may have been paid something by Williams to act as reserve driver (I would be very surprised if it was a ‘fat’ paycheque) but he also wore Lotos logos on his team kit so evidently at least part of his paycheque in 2018 was coming from the sponsor. As far as I read it, two teams took a good look at Kubica for 2018 and decided to go elsewhere, Williams only putting him in a race seat when it was blindingly obvious that they had no other options who would pay for the seat. I really don’t see that he would have shown massively better in a different team. He was demolished by a rookie teammate this year, and has shown not even the odd flashes of speed that we got from Sirotkin and Stroll. The harsh truth us that everything was against him. Nobody has been away from F1 as long and made any kind of comeback, let alone a successful one. The number of comebacks that work are vanishingly few - Lauda in ‘84 was the only one that had any kind of success - and most are embarrassing failures, even before you factor in the life limiting injuries. The chances of it working out were tiny. Sad, but this was a mistake
You know that Robert was 0.7s faster than Sirotkin in literaly his first time in F1 car after the crash? In a car and a track that Sergey used for training for over a year before? Lotos has indeed announced it will support Robert at the end of feb 2018, but marked clearly that it will NOT support Williams directly (i.e. none of Lotos cash will go to Williams account). It has been marketing deal made with Robert.
I understand You have Your point of view, though, and say what You think. There are quite a few not yet convinced that his time is past, me included, so lets leave it there.

Greg_OR
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Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:09 am
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Greg_OR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:33 am

Orlen CEO just revealed that Orlen is to rebrand its gas stations in Germany (Star) and Czech Rep. (Benzina) in 3 years back to Orlen brand and they need to build international recognition and main activity in this area will be sport sponsorship, so I assume that 4-5 years in F1 presence of Orlen is guaranteed. CEO also is supporting Robert and they are talking with some teams at present, so even if Robert will have to make step back, I hope he will be back again to race in proper team. The speed is there, no doubts.

marmer
33
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by marmer » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:38 pm

whatever happens for robert now he has been badly treated at Williams since the start of pre season. for whatever reason he just needs to get out of there.

but i think its genuinly suprising that at not point as anyone heard that robert has had an issue with his arm. never crashed in a race ok he has been slow but it cannot be 100% sure it was his arm that is causing the slow speed if russell is getting better parts.

its a real shame this was the only drive he could get. so far away from the grid he has actually damaged his chances of a race drive for someone by soildly turining up every week to drive in last place been given the short end of the stick by his own team that he is proping up with his own money

Scorpaguy
10
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:05 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Scorpaguy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:28 am

4 years ago I stood 3 meters away from Kub for 30 minutes. Rally Poland...slight start delay to a stage. I noticed a few things:

Kub is a serious guy. Despite the delay and backup...he remained focused and unwavered. A few smiles here and there...short exchanges with his codriver...but never absent.

His arm...well, if you research this forum, you will find that I then said his return was impossible...yes, eating some crow now. However, looking at his mobility then and now, I realize I was incorrect. Kub was competitive in WRC...not a winner, but competitive. Watching rally and F1 onboards, both have their challenges. I think Kub must have a bit more in him pace wise, but we cannot be sure in this team setting.

Bottom line...he had a competitive car in WRC2 and won the championship. In WRC...inadequate resources, but set competitive stage times. In F1...disaster team setting. Thus, I feel the jury is still out.

Manoah2u
383
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:25 am

Scorpaguy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:28 am
4 years ago I stood 3 meters away from Kub for 30 minutes. Rally Poland...slight start delay to a stage. I noticed a few things:

Kub is a serious guy. Despite the delay and backup...he remained focused and unwavered. A few smiles here and there...short exchanges with his codriver...but never absent.

His arm...well, if you research this forum, you will find that I then said his return was impossible...yes, eating some crow now. However, looking at his mobility then and now, I realize I was incorrect. Kub was competitive in WRC...not a winner, but competitive. Watching rally and F1 onboards, both have their challenges. I think Kub must have a bit more in him pace wise, but we cannot be sure in this team setting.

Bottom line...he had a competitive car in WRC2 and won the championship. In WRC...inadequate resources, but set competitive stage times. In F1...disaster team setting. Thus, I feel the jury is still out.
100% agree here.
I am still baffled he is in F1, really am. I saw his arm before and i thought no way ever aswell. It is remarkable and incredible that he not only managed it this far but can finish gp's and is actually ahead in the standings of his teammate, dispite clear evidence the team itself is sabotaging his possibilities and not having an honest treatment.

I really hope we will see kubica in a better car soon. I don't think 2020 has space for him unfortunately, but 2021 might prove chances. Again, i'm disappointed with HAAS to keep Grosjean. I really hoped we might see KUB in HAAS for 2020, i really think he and Haas would be a match.
The only team as far as i am aware of that has seats unconfirmed for 2020 are Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo.
I don't believe ToroRosso (AlphaTauro) is healthy for him to be, Alfa Romeo sounds reasonable BUT with Kimi there,
i doubt they'd go for another 'senior' driver. They'll either keep Giovanazzi (which is a bad decision imho, but i guess the italians want an Italian in F1) or replace him with another young gun. Fittipaldi?
So that means 2020, there's no seat.
He thus has to find a team where he can be their test/reserve driver.
Again, i think Haas still fits the bill. Even though Grosjean has been contracted for 2020, there have been moments where it was suggested he might get binned during the season.
That could still happen in 2020, so perhaps not unwise.

He'd also be in a situation where he's closer linked to Ferrari material. Ferrari had interest before, and this would be a good solution i think.

We'll see.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

PowerandtheGlory
9
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:52 am

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by PowerandtheGlory » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:09 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:25 am
Scorpaguy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:28 am
4 years ago I stood 3 meters away from Kub for 30 minutes. Rally Poland...slight start delay to a stage. I noticed a few things:

Kub is a serious guy. Despite the delay and backup...he remained focused and unwavered. A few smiles here and there...short exchanges with his codriver...but never absent.

His arm...well, if you research this forum, you will find that I then said his return was impossible...yes, eating some crow now. However, looking at his mobility then and now, I realize I was incorrect. Kub was competitive in WRC...not a winner, but competitive. Watching rally and F1 onboards, both have their challenges. I think Kub must have a bit more in him pace wise, but we cannot be sure in this team setting.

Bottom line...he had a competitive car in WRC2 and won the championship. In WRC...inadequate resources, but set competitive stage times. In F1...disaster team setting. Thus, I feel the jury is still out.
100% agree here.
I am still baffled he is in F1, really am. I saw his arm before and i thought no way ever aswell. It is remarkable and incredible that he not only managed it this far but can finish gp's and is actually ahead in the standings of his teammate, dispite clear evidence the team itself is sabotaging his possibilities and not having an honest treatment.

I really hope we will see kubica in a better car soon. I don't think 2020 has space for him unfortunately, but 2021 might prove chances. Again, i'm disappointed with HAAS to keep Grosjean. I really hoped we might see KUB in HAAS for 2020, i really think he and Haas would be a match.
The only team as far as i am aware of that has seats unconfirmed for 2020 are Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo.
I don't believe ToroRosso (AlphaTauro) is healthy for him to be, Alfa Romeo sounds reasonable BUT with Kimi there,
i doubt they'd go for another 'senior' driver. They'll either keep Giovanazzi (which is a bad decision imho, but i guess the italians want an Italian in F1) or replace him with another young gun. Fittipaldi?
So that means 2020, there's no seat.
He thus has to find a team where he can be their test/reserve driver.
Again, i think Haas still fits the bill. Even though Grosjean has been contracted for 2020, there have been moments where it was suggested he might get binned during the season.
That could still happen in 2020, so perhaps not unwise.

He'd also be in a situation where he's closer linked to Ferrari material. Ferrari had interest before, and this would be a good solution i think.

We'll see.
Hi Manoah, when you say clear evidence they are sabotaging him what do you mean. Im a big Kubica Fan and its like to hear about this
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

izzy
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by izzy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:42 pm

i read, probably on motorsportmagazine, that one of the reasons George is faster is that he can make more changes to settings during a lap. also there was a time Kubi went off while he was trying to make changes. Now he has his new steering wheel, but still he has to use one good hand for more things simultaneously than other drivers. And he can't have his wheel in balance with both hands having equal mass and grip both sides so that small forces, that tend to be more precise, make the difference and steer. Anyway I don't see why on earth a team would hire a driver and then sabotage him, especially when a Robert Kubica success story would have been so great

of course Williams is in a bad state and desperate for money, that's made it all harder but it's also probably why after a long time they finally gave him the drive, when they hadn't in previous years and nobody else would either. In my mind Robert himself has recognised it's not quite going to work, and that's why he's announced he's going to try something else, like DTM that has power steering

That doesn't mean he isn't basically a great driver and character, afaics it just means everybody tried and in the end the injury has been too much

trinidefender
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by trinidefender » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:33 pm

izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:42 pm
i read, probably on motorsportmagazine, that one of the reasons George is faster is that he can make more changes to settings during a lap. also there was a time Kubi went off while he was trying to make changes. Now he has his new steering wheel, but still he has to use one good hand for more things simultaneously than other drivers. And he can't have his wheel in balance with both hands having equal mass and grip both sides so that small forces, that tend to be more precise, make the difference and steer. Anyway I don't see why on earth a team would hire a driver and then sabotage him, especially when a Robert Kubica success story would have been so great

of course Williams is in a bad state and desperate for money, that's made it all harder but it's also probably why after a long time they finally gave him the drive, when they hadn't in previous years and nobody else would either. In my mind Robert himself has recognised it's not quite going to work, and that's why he's announced he's going to try something else, like DTM that has power steering

That doesn't mean he isn't basically a great driver and character, afaics it just means everybody tried and in the end the injury has been too much
F1 cars do use power steering.