Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Snorked
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Snorked » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?

Iirc, Asaki in his French GP interview said there was one more partnership, and details would be coming at the right time, maybe the Japan GP is that time.

If like past years, we should be getting photos of the 2019 engine naked on display in the next few days 🀞

rogazilla
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rogazilla » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.

wuzak
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by wuzak » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:38 am

Snorked wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?
HRC engineers may well be helping with combustion, but I doubt they are using anything they learned in MotoGP.

Marti_EF3
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User avatar
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Spain

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Marti_EF3 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:31 pm

Snorked wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?

Asaki in his French GP interview said there was one more partnership, and details would be coming at the right time, maybe the Japan GP is that time.

If like past years, we should be getting photos of the 2019 engine naked on display in the next few days 🀞
May be the collaboration with Hitachi for some electrical parts??

sn809
5
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sn809 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:33 pm

rogazilla wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.
Lol, I hope that is not the case, as per Lorenzo their Moto GP bike is very tough to ride.

Bullwinkle
0
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:45 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bullwinkle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm

rogazilla wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.

rogazilla
17
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rogazilla » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:40 pm

sn809 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:33 pm
...

Lol, I hope that is not the case, as per Lorenzo their Moto GP bike is very tough to ride.
pure guessing and joking but maybe that's why they have issue launching and wheel spins and why Gas couldn't drive it? :lol:

rogazilla
17
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rogazilla » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm

Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.

Polite
-1
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Polite » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm

rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm
Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:

Nonserviam85
10
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Nonserviam85 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:11 pm

Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
There is no danger of falling off an F1 car...

PlatinumZealot
348
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Polite wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm
Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:
Should higher peaks from the big band stress the tyre more though? Sounds counter intuitive when you say it stresses it less.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Tommy Cookers
512
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:13 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:02 pm
Polite wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:
Should higher peaks from the big band stress the tyre more though? Sounds counter intuitive when you say it stresses it less.
big bang - my eye !
(perhaps those who upvoted Polite can give their BB evidence to us)

Moto GP has 500 bangs per second (whether evenly-spaced or unevenly-spaced)
that fat squidgy fabric bag filled with air (the rear tyre) won't transmit bangs over about 5 cycles per second
ie the tread is isolated like your car is isolated from the engine vibrations by the elastic engine mounts

to big bang or not is more about crankshaft design factors related to friction and as the late Prof Gordon Blair wrote ...
the effects on power curve of the various different gas dynamics in the plenum (and the rider's belief/prejudices)
(Prof Blair was a consultant on the Ducati Moto GP)
induction sequences designed like novice xylophone player's moves (not like virtuoso's) are best

the 'BB' stories only started with the NSR500 (V4 2 stroke) then the M1 inline 4 4 stroke and then with V4s
for decades 2 strokes (sq 4 Suzukis, inline 4 Yamahas) had simultaneous firing ie BB - and no-one mentioned BB !
Honda had simultaneous firings in the NR500 and VFR 400s/750s - and no-one mentioned BB !)
people only noticed BB after the NSR went to a lot of trouble (despite the wide V angle) to be even-firing (ask Doohan)
(any natural crankshaft design in near 90 deg V4 2 stroke would and did amount to so-called BB by accident)

a BB F1 could have all crankpins in line so 3 bangs together, then 270 deg peace, the other 3 bangs, then 450 deg peace
this would and other so-called BB schemes would be bad for the turbocharging

btw in 1959 Johnny Giles put a simultaneous-firing engine in his Triumph (factory) scrambler
the bosses went mad (imagine a Triumph sounding like a Manx Norton) and stopped him
Jim Alves proved the Triumph could beat all those ' invincible' single-cylinder trials machines (ok he said he could go slower)

ispano6
106
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my armchair

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:36 am

Marti_EF3 wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:31 pm
Snorked wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?

Asaki in his French GP interview said there was one more partnership, and details would be coming at the right time, maybe the Japan GP is that time.

If like past years, we should be getting photos of the 2019 engine naked on display in the next few days 🀞
May be the collaboration with Hitachi for some electrical parts??
I was hoping NASA JPL/Caltech.

Polite
-1
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Polite » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:24 am

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:02 pm
Polite wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm


I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:
Should higher peaks from the big band stress the tyre more though? Sounds counter intuitive when you say it stresses it less.
really counter intuitive but its true

.. every bang is a stress but 4 bangs very close together produce more stress on the rubber then only 2 bangs in the same amount of time.

maybe is the frequency that matters the most but i can help more than this. #-o

deschrijver
1
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 9:09 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by deschrijver » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:24 pm

Big bang engines in motogp have been introduced to have more rear wheel grip and for having a softer caracter of power delivery.
By unequalising the fire order of the engine, there comes a frequency change of power delivered to the tyre.
Think of the tire gets some more time to rest after 2 rapid combustions.