Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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mzso
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
Not without a serious grid connection or bringing a charging station with you...
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
Or build one... As I suggested. One that charges 20 something cars might be a bigger one, but at least at 362 days of a year people would be able to charge their road cars there. They are trying to promote EVs. Charging stations help a lot with that.

The grid and power-plants have little issues for the for the foreseeable future. Loads are rarely near the peak and when people go to bed the grid is on near idle.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
I´ve read people stating there´s no problem. Overnight charges are slow (no special needs for high peaks) and when power demand are insignificant, so the grid can take it perfectly.

Also, take into consideration self production is the trend now, reducing grid demands

AJI
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 am
AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
I´ve read people stating there´s no problem. Overnight charges are slow (no special needs for high peaks) and when power demand are insignificant, so the grid can take it perfectly.

Also, take into consideration self production is the trend now, reducing grid demands
And I've spoken with experts who suggest the exact opposite. It all depends on the grid infrastructure in your location, plant production capacities and the time span for BEV adoption. In the short term (while there is a slow transition to BEV's) I agree there isn't much of a problem, but there will be a point where existing infrastructure needs a major upgrade.

The problem, to my mind, is analogous to internet speed. I got 25-30Mbps reliably 15 years ago when I was an early adopter. 10 years ago, as more people got online, I got 15-20mbps. 5 years ago I was lucky to get 7... The only solution, a serious network upgrade.

Regarding self production - One could charge a BEV perfectly well from my current solar setup which generates somewhere between 10 and 50kwh per day. The only caveats being: the sun has to shine, the car has to be parked at home during the day and you have to have my solar setup.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a whole thing here as I'm actually pro BEV, but there are serious limitations with energy supply that shouldn't be glossed over with blanket statements like, "there's no problem, the current grid has capacity", which may be correct for right now, but won't be in 3-5 years, or the polar opposite, "we just need to upgrade the grid", like it can be done in record time with the snap of the fingers for very little money...

Once again, I'm not trying to start a mega argument here, I'm just pointing out my concerns.

Ps I know this is off-topic, but it is related to previous posts

mzso
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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AJI wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 pm
Anyway, I don't want to get into a whole thing here as I'm actually pro BEV, but there are serious limitations with energy supply that shouldn't be glossed over with blanket statements like, "there's no problem, the current grid has capacity", which may be correct for right now, but won't be in 3-5 years, or the polar opposite, "we just need to upgrade the grid", like it can be done in record time with the snap of the fingers for very little money...
I wouldn't say they're huge concerns. Overnight charging can support lots and lots of EVs. Of course this unregulated ultra-fast charging nonsense will have to go away once the number of EVs will increase.

And EVs will no more multiply in quantity at a snap of fingers than the electric grid. In 3-5 years their sales might increase substantially, but they will still be only a tiny fraction of all vehicles.
Maybe sometime in the not so close future, if respective providers fail to provide enough electricity, it will create a boom in solar power both at home and at workplaces.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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AJI wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 am
AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
I´ve read people stating there´s no problem. Overnight charges are slow (no special needs for high peaks) and when power demand are insignificant, so the grid can take it perfectly.

Also, take into consideration self production is the trend now, reducing grid demands
And I've spoken with experts who suggest the exact opposite. It all depends on the grid infrastructure in your location, plant production capacities and the time span for BEV adoption. In the short term (while there is a slow transition to BEV's) I agree there isn't much of a problem, but there will be a point where existing infrastructure needs a major upgrade.

The problem, to my mind, is analogous to internet speed. I got 25-30Mbps reliably 15 years ago when I was an early adopter. 10 years ago, as more people got online, I got 15-20mbps. 5 years ago I was lucky to get 7... The only solution, a serious network upgrade.

Regarding self production - One could charge a BEV perfectly well from my current solar setup which generates somewhere between 10 and 50kwh per day. The only caveats being: the sun has to shine, the car has to be parked at home during the day and you have to have my solar setup.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a whole thing here as I'm actually pro BEV, but there are serious limitations with energy supply that shouldn't be glossed over with blanket statements like, "there's no problem, the current grid has capacity", which may be correct for right now, but won't be in 3-5 years, or the polar opposite, "we just need to upgrade the grid", like it can be done in record time with the snap of the fingers for very little money...

Once again, I'm not trying to start a mega argument here, I'm just pointing out my concerns.

Ps I know this is off-topic, but it is related to previous posts
What´s your home setup? I´m genuinely interested as I´m in a search for a new home and also interested on EVs so I´d like to know what kind of setup can cope with a daily charge of a EV

Agree with your post generally speaking, the question is if the self production increase will compensate the higher sales of EVs or not, or if the low demand of power at night can take the difference. I don´t think anyone can answer this question reliably, it will depend on the EVs increase and self production increase, and governments play a huge role in this

AJI
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:56 am

What´s your home setup? I´m genuinely interested as I´m in a search for a new home and also interested on EVs so I´d like to know what kind of setup can cope with a daily charge of a EV
...
As we're now seriously off-topic PM me. I'm happy to share the details.
For those looking for a fast answer, it's not so much the size of the system but where it's located that counts.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Andres125sx
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:34 pm
Breakthrough at Nikola!

https://nikolamotor.com/press_releases/ ... ld-2020-67
If that is real... wow, the change is here
This battery technology could increase the range of current EV passenger cars from 300 miles up to 600 miles with little or no increase to battery size and weight.
...
Cycled over 2,000 times with acceptable end-of-life performance
40% reduction in weight compared to lithium-ion cells
50% material cost reduction per kWh compared to lithium-ion batteries
...
Due to the impact this technology will have on society and emissions, Nikola has taken an unprecedented position to share the IP with all other OEM’s, even competitors, that contribute to the Nikola IP license and new consortium.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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I´m in shock none is comenting this, I´ve been waiting this new for many many years! :D

We still have to wait and see if it´s real, if those specs they claim are real, if pricing will really be that low, if they will really last 2000 cycles and specially we´ll have to wait some years yet before seeing any of this in the street, but men, if real, THIS IS A GAME CHANGER


If real, this battery will literally bury ICEs and will suppose a huge boost to autonomous renewable home instalations wich now will be paid off much faster so they will increase dramatically wich will have a huge impact in our pockets, but much bigger in the environement :D

Basically if we believe those data, this will revolutionize our whole world!

Just_a_fan
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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You've used the word "if" 8 times when discussing that new battery. I think that answers the question really. At this stage, it reads like someone looking to encourage people to give him money.

Let's wait and see - I'm guessing it's vapourware.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Andres125sx
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:58 am
You've used the word "if" 8 times when discussing that new battery. I think that answers the question really. At this stage, it reads like someone looking to encourage people to give him money.

Let's wait and see - I'm guessing it's vapourware.
How many announcement have you read from any manufacturer stating they're starting the production of a battery which is clearly better than current LiIon? None. Do not confuse articles about the potential of some new battery technology with this stating this technology actually works and is starting production, it's completely different

Those IFS are just because I don't buy announcement as reality, but they should be plain liars with the data they published to not cause a true revolution

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subcritical71
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:59 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:58 am
You've used the word "if" 8 times when discussing that new battery. I think that answers the question really. At this stage, it reads like someone looking to encourage people to give him money.

Let's wait and see - I'm guessing it's vapourware.
How many announcement have you read from any manufacturer stating they're starting the production of a battery which is clearly better than current LiIon? None. Do not confuse articles about the potential of some new battery technology with this stating this technology actually works and is starting production, it's completely different

Those IFS are just because I don't buy announcement as reality, but they should be plain liars with the data they published to not cause a true revolution
With the hazards of Li-ion, I wish more research was conducted on getting Li-Fe to the same level as Li-ion. As for the Nikola article, I remain skeptical until they actually start producing. Too many venture capitalists out there to get good read on any press release. #-o But it does look promising.

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Big Tea
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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If it is half as good as advertised it will be a 'game changer'. However, I am always sceptical about startups who want money off anyone and anyone before they actually have one, or a working prototype people can test.

I really really do hope it is as advertised, but will not be putting any of my money in just yet
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

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gandharva
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:55 am
I´m in shock none is comenting this, I´ve been waiting this new for many many years! :D
That's "just" another announcement of a solid-state battery. Pretty much every company that is working in this sector is pushing this technology atm. In general solid-state batteries are expected to hit the mass market around 2023-2025. Toyota also made some announcement about a prototype car that uses solid-state batterys to be ready in 2020.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/moto ... -next-year

It's pretty cool that this technology will be ready soon, but I just relax and wait for it. My current car will last another 3- maybe 5 years and after that I will for sure buy a BEV and maybe it'll already have solid-state batteries. :)

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Andres125sx
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Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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Agree, that was the reason for all my "ifs", but I hope and expect they´re serious