Evolution and limit of battery energy density

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mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

Post by mzso » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:29 pm

AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
Not without a serious grid connection or bringing a charging station with you...
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
Or build one... As I suggested. One that charges 20 something cars might be a bigger one, but at least at 362 days of a year people would be able to charge their road cars there. They are trying to promote EVs. Charging stations help a lot with that.

The grid and power-plants have little issues for the for the foreseeable future. Loads are rarely near the peak and when people go to bed the grid is on near idle.

Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

Post by Andres125sx » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 am

AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
I´ve read people stating there´s no problem. Overnight charges are slow (no special needs for high peaks) and when power demand are insignificant, so the grid can take it perfectly.

Also, take into consideration self production is the trend now, reducing grid demands

AJI
35
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

Post by AJI » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 am
AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
I´ve read people stating there´s no problem. Overnight charges are slow (no special needs for high peaks) and when power demand are insignificant, so the grid can take it perfectly.

Also, take into consideration self production is the trend now, reducing grid demands
And I've spoken with experts who suggest the exact opposite. It all depends on the grid infrastructure in your location, plant production capacities and the time span for BEV adoption. In the short term (while there is a slow transition to BEV's) I agree there isn't much of a problem, but there will be a point where existing infrastructure needs a major upgrade.

The problem, to my mind, is analogous to internet speed. I got 25-30Mbps reliably 15 years ago when I was an early adopter. 10 years ago, as more people got online, I got 15-20mbps. 5 years ago I was lucky to get 7... The only solution, a serious network upgrade.

Regarding self production - One could charge a BEV perfectly well from my current solar setup which generates somewhere between 10 and 50kwh per day. The only caveats being: the sun has to shine, the car has to be parked at home during the day and you have to have my solar setup.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a whole thing here as I'm actually pro BEV, but there are serious limitations with energy supply that shouldn't be glossed over with blanket statements like, "there's no problem, the current grid has capacity", which may be correct for right now, but won't be in 3-5 years, or the polar opposite, "we just need to upgrade the grid", like it can be done in record time with the snap of the fingers for very little money...

Once again, I'm not trying to start a mega argument here, I'm just pointing out my concerns.

Ps I know this is off-topic, but it is related to previous posts

mzso
15
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

Post by mzso » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:24 am

AJI wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 pm
Anyway, I don't want to get into a whole thing here as I'm actually pro BEV, but there are serious limitations with energy supply that shouldn't be glossed over with blanket statements like, "there's no problem, the current grid has capacity", which may be correct for right now, but won't be in 3-5 years, or the polar opposite, "we just need to upgrade the grid", like it can be done in record time with the snap of the fingers for very little money...
I wouldn't say they're huge concerns. Overnight charging can support lots and lots of EVs. Of course this unregulated ultra-fast charging nonsense will have to go away once the number of EVs will increase.

And EVs will no more multiply in quantity at a snap of fingers than the electric grid. In 3-5 years their sales might increase substantially, but they will still be only a tiny fraction of all vehicles.
Maybe sometime in the not so close future, if respective providers fail to provide enough electricity, it will create a boom in solar power both at home and at workplaces.

Andres125sx
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User avatar
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:56 am

AJI wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 am
AJI wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.
I´ve read people stating there´s no problem. Overnight charges are slow (no special needs for high peaks) and when power demand are insignificant, so the grid can take it perfectly.

Also, take into consideration self production is the trend now, reducing grid demands
And I've spoken with experts who suggest the exact opposite. It all depends on the grid infrastructure in your location, plant production capacities and the time span for BEV adoption. In the short term (while there is a slow transition to BEV's) I agree there isn't much of a problem, but there will be a point where existing infrastructure needs a major upgrade.

The problem, to my mind, is analogous to internet speed. I got 25-30Mbps reliably 15 years ago when I was an early adopter. 10 years ago, as more people got online, I got 15-20mbps. 5 years ago I was lucky to get 7... The only solution, a serious network upgrade.

Regarding self production - One could charge a BEV perfectly well from my current solar setup which generates somewhere between 10 and 50kwh per day. The only caveats being: the sun has to shine, the car has to be parked at home during the day and you have to have my solar setup.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a whole thing here as I'm actually pro BEV, but there are serious limitations with energy supply that shouldn't be glossed over with blanket statements like, "there's no problem, the current grid has capacity", which may be correct for right now, but won't be in 3-5 years, or the polar opposite, "we just need to upgrade the grid", like it can be done in record time with the snap of the fingers for very little money...

Once again, I'm not trying to start a mega argument here, I'm just pointing out my concerns.

Ps I know this is off-topic, but it is related to previous posts
What´s your home setup? I´m genuinely interested as I´m in a search for a new home and also interested on EVs so I´d like to know what kind of setup can cope with a daily charge of a EV

Agree with your post generally speaking, the question is if the self production increase will compensate the higher sales of EVs or not, or if the low demand of power at night can take the difference. I don´t think anyone can answer this question reliably, it will depend on the EVs increase and self production increase, and governments play a huge role in this

AJI
35
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Evolution and limit of battery energy density

Post by AJI » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:20 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:56 am

What´s your home setup? I´m genuinely interested as I´m in a search for a new home and also interested on EVs so I´d like to know what kind of setup can cope with a daily charge of a EV
...
As we're now seriously off-topic PM me. I'm happy to share the details.
For those looking for a fast answer, it's not so much the size of the system but where it's located that counts.