2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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foneFanatiq
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by foneFanatiq » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:30 am

Does anyone know wha driver is testing for them this week?

Pyrone89
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Pyrone89 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:33 am

Tuesday Max, Wednesday Alex

foneFanatiq
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by foneFanatiq » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:34 am

Pyrone89 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:33 am
Tuesday Max, Wednesday Alex
Thank you

ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:55 am

Karim28 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:01 pm
Now the situation just like the start of 2018, it's all depending on what the engine supplier could deliver next season.
Honda should overcome the talks of equaling Mercedes, we all know that Mercedes' reliability is much better than Honda this season. So Honda will be asked for more performance and more reliability, it's the time for them to finish a season without any penalty in normal conditions.
Very eager to see what the team could do without Adrian (I think that was his last year with RBR as I could remember. If it isn't, I hope anybody correct this for me).
Actually I beg to differ, in that Honda's Spec3-4 seems to be more reliable than Mercedes latest update, which actually had failures during an actual race (customer teams included) . No such raceday failures for Honda and Monza doesn't count since that was caused by debris. The only major change for next year is 18in wheels and tires so much of the focus will be on getting to grips with that.

SF Engineer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by SF Engineer » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:04 am

ispano6 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:55 am
Karim28 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:01 pm
Now the situation just like the start of 2018, it's all depending on what the engine supplier could deliver next season.
Honda should overcome the talks of equaling Mercedes, we all know that Mercedes' reliability is much better than Honda this season. So Honda will be asked for more performance and more reliability, it's the time for them to finish a season without any penalty in normal conditions.
Very eager to see what the team could do without Adrian (I think that was his last year with RBR as I could remember. If it isn't, I hope anybody correct this for me).
Actually I beg to differ, in that Honda's Spec3-4 seems to be more reliable than Mercedes latest update, which actually had failures during an actual race (customer teams included) . No such raceday failures for Honda and Monza doesn't count since that was caused by debris. The only major change for next year is 18in wheels and tires so much of the focus will be on getting to grips with that.
I thought the bigger wheels were only in for F2 next year, with F1 adopting them in 2021. IMO, that change alone is massive and would have the potential to shake up the pecking order of the top 3.

holeindalip
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by holeindalip » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:57 am

[/quote]

I thought the bigger wheels were only in for F2 next year, with F1 adopting them in 2021. IMO, that change alone is massive and would have the potential to shake up the pecking order of the top 3.
[/quote]

Correct, wheels don't change for F1 next year its '21 that they do

Capharol
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Capharol » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:45 pm

this is how tyres looks after doing donuts

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diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:28 pm

Bill wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:41 am
Next year Pirelli will produce one of their new masterpieces so it's not forgone the field will be competitive.we could have another Mercedes domination while everyone is trying to figure out how to best use tires. The frustration with fia and liberty is when things become interesting they change the rules which costly and become boring with field spreading.
It's not a given that there will be new tires for 2020. After the tire tests this week the teams will take a vote. If they vote to accept the new tire (which is NOT suppose to be different from the 2019 tire in short runs, just have a wider temp working range for long runs). If the teams vote to accept the new tire, then you can't really blame Pirelli if YOU are not satisfied with the tires.

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:55 pm

Verstappen was on average .3 seconds per lap slower than Hamilton, so back to reality. This has been the gap on normal sea level circuits since the start of the season. Verstappen was only faster than Hamilton on 16 laps, and Hamilton was up to 1.8 seconds faster on their fastest laps.

Reality rears it's ugly head, the Mercedes still has an ace up its sleeve. The car has more downforce, so can preserve it's tires better, it's better over bumps, and is faster in high speed corners. The power unit of the Mercedes is still ahead of the Honda, because the Red Bull has less peak downforce, it can just about match Mercedes acceleration. With less peak load the Mercedes would have the same straight-line advantage as Ferrari. Red Bull has to make a more extreme compromise, they are losing out in the high speed corners, and their suspension is almost as good as Mercedes. Where Red Bull does win out is in low speed downforce, they have bar none, the best car below 180kph. They can generate more downforce at a lower speed than every other chassis Mercedes included.

This means there's still an engine deficit, one being masked by a chassis that's very good at low speeds but compromised at high speeds. Honda has to deliver to tweak the RB15 philosophy into more peak load. With the tires being the way they are, having more peak downforce helps preserve the tires, but you cannot take advantage of the load without the engine power to overcome the drag. If the RB15 had the same peak loads and drag as the W10, Verstappen would be complaining about a lack of power.

The Honda engine has been getting closer, but it is still not yet at the level of Mercedes, and if Mercedes brings another big gain next year as has been rumored then Honda still has a mountain to climb. Honda is all in, and they are doubling down, so they must have some confidence that they can improve the power unit. No doubt the Red Bull 16 will be an evolution of this year's car, I don't expect big visible changes, noticeable changes yes, but they won't be miles off what's on the car now. Biggest changes will be under the skin, one of the reasons the Mercedes was so fast was the footprint of the bodywork behind the driver. They likely had the narrowest side pods and exits and that opens up the most critical aero real estate on the car.

The reason the big money teams and manufacturers win is because they make that area more compact than other teams(while respecting cooling requirements) can with their budgets. This opens up more space over the diffuser, which gives you more downforce. This area is the most critical area for downforce production on the entire car, and if you can get that right, you have more downforce in the back.(whether you can balance that out up front is another matter entirely).

This is why Ferrari, and Red Bull and Mercedes and McLaren tend to be up front instead of at the back. Well funded or creative teams can make headways, especially if said teams are inheriting the rear end from a manufacturer.

Teams like Williams are doomed to being backmarkers with their huge openings covering the diffuser so they can run their aluminum gearbox and cooling solution.

True the volumes are specified in the rules so you can't make the diffuser bigger, but you can remove structure from the path of the air, that void can let you duct air going through the body work, things you can't do if you fill it up with bodywork and cooling exits.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:46 pm

Mercedes has more power than Honda okay what matric are you looking at that tell thes reality and if Mercedes has more peak downforce than Rbr what that got to do with Honda. Qualifying sector 2 & 1 between Honda and Mercedes was dead even Ferrari was faster. Rbr high rake philosophy doesn't carry large wing it's a philosophy not a compromise.The aero regulations have not been kind to Rbr they lost their edge, Mercedes also copied their front suspension so are also fast in slow corners therefore Rbr no longer has an edge Mercedes has best chassis.

In Austin a high altitude track Rbr was fine even though carrying damage on floor even Abu Dhabi Max was having throttle problems so 16 s would probably have been 10s gap.

The Rbr "transition " car looks bear bone compared to detailed aero of Mercedes so let wait for 2020 before jumping to conclusions. Spec 4 have been superb it's definitely an improvement and fuel upgrade it's for long run

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Capharol » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:12 pm

for those who are interested, the last post race interview

Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:09 pm

Bill wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:46 pm
Mercedes has more power than Honda okay what matric are you looking at that tell thes reality and if Mercedes has more peak downforce than Rbr what that got to do with Honda. Qualifying sector 2 & 1 between Honda and Mercedes was dead even Ferrari was faster. Rbr high rake philosophy doesn't carry large wing it's a philosophy not a compromise.The aero regulations have not been kind to Rbr they lost their edge, Mercedes also copied their front suspension so are also fast in slow corners therefore Rbr no longer has an edge Mercedes has best chassis.

In Austin a high altitude track Rbr was fine even though carrying damage on floor even Abu Dhabi Max was having throttle problems so 16 s would probably have been 10s gap.

The Rbr "transition " car looks bear bone compared to detailed aero of Mercedes so let wait for 2020 before jumping to conclusions. Spec 4 have been superb it's definitely an improvement and fuel upgrade it's for long run
Because you need power to overcome the drag, power Honda doesn't have at the moment, relative to Mercedes. Austin is not high altitude, Austin is practically sea level, no higher above sea level than Barcelona. RBR is better than Mercedes in low speeds because their high rake develops downforce sooner, and they bleed it off at speed as the rake lowers. They lose to Mercedes in the high speed corners, but beat them in the low speed stuff, and are about even in the middle. If the peak loads(and drag) on the cars were similar, the Mercedes would be clearly faster in a straight line. Instead the RB15 is a hair slower, essentially matching Mercedes in a straight line.

The average gap is .3, that's the gap that needs to be closed over the winter.

Next year the Honda has to keep that gap to Mercedes while RBR puts more peak load on the car. It's the only way to beat Mercedes. Therefore both RB and Honda have to step up. The RBR philosophy is good, they just need to improve the car and Honda needs to improve the power unit if they are to challenge on every track. Otherwise they'll only have enough to win on a handful of tracks where the characteristics suit them. That's not good enough to challenge for the drivers title, let alone the constructors.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by dans79 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:37 pm

Bill wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:46 pm
Rbr high rake philosophy doesn't carry large wing it's a philosophy not a compromise.The aero regulations have not been
The aero philosophy does not live in isolation. If you want to reside at the front of the grid then you have to make compromises to your aero philosophy to accommodate the PU philosophy/constraints/requirements.

If the Honda PU had power to spare compared to its competition, you can bet your life on the fact that Newey and the rest of the design team would design a car to best utilize it.


Bill wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:46 pm
In Austin a high altitude track Rbr was fine even though carrying damage on floor even Abu Dhabi Max was having throttle problems so 16 s would probably have been 10s gap.
Austin is not anywhere close to high altitude, it's 149m above sea level.

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:08 am

I know Austin is low altitude that was a typing error.my point was in Austin the Honda pu did we'll against Mercedes so Abu Dhabi underperformance can't be blamed on pu it's track related Rbr chassis can't win them all

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:13 am

By the way it's not true Rbr is better than than Mercedes in low speed corners. Mercedes dominated sector 3 in Abu Dhabi same can be said about Barcelona. The difference between merc and Rbr was on twist bits on straights they were equal.ferrari was losing 0.6 tenth on sector 3