2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 am

Sector 3 is not slow corners though, they're middle speed corners and require maximum downforce. Also RBR hadn't solved their low speed issues until after Barcelona. From the onboards Verstappen lost out in turns 1 2 and 3 but made it up in the chicane and hairpin, Hamilton gained a split hair's worth of time down the straights, lost a bit of time again in the chicane, but made it up back down the second straight. Hamilton gained again coming out of the chicane sequence but lost some time to Verstappen under braking for the slow right hander. After that Hamilton gained a bit of time in the 2 lefts and the final corner where Verstappen made a mistake.

The gap in qualifying was also the gap in average race pace.
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Shrieker
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Shrieker » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:46 am

Juzh wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:37 pm
hamilton vs verstappen q3 laps
https://streamable.com/8z9nm
https://streamable.com/8z9nm
Fantastic stuff, thanks.
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ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:47 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:55 pm
...
I'm Talking PU reliabiity not outright car performance. And if you didn't know the brand new Mercedes spec4 had a failure during the last race weekend that resulted in a total replacement.

It was all change on Valtteri Bottas’ Silver Arrow on Friday night as Mercedes were forced to fit a new power unit for the second time this weekend in Abu Dhabi, ahead of final practice…

Mercedes mechanical failures are rare, with Bottas’ engine problem in Brazil the team’s first since Austria 2018. They fitted a new internal combustion engine (ICE), turbocharger and MGU-H ahead of Friday practice, triggering a string of grid penalties that would confine him to the back of the grid.

Bottas made the most of a fresh latest spec power unit to go quickest in both 90-minute practice sessions, but it wasn’t completely smooth for the Finn as he collided clumsily with Romain Grosjean, which earned him a reprimand from the stewards.

Overnight, Mercedes discovered a pneumatic leak – which had nothing to do with the contact with Grosjean according to the team – on the fresh PU which couldn’t be fixed, so they were forced to change it again.


As a result, Bottas has taken an extra ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K and turbocharger. That triggers more penalties, but they are irrelevant given he’s already starting from the back of the pack on Sunday evening.

Sieper
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Sieper » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:19 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 am
Sector 3 is not slow corners though, they're middle speed corners and require maximum downforce. Also RBR hadn't solved their low speed issues until after Barcelona. From the onboards Verstappen lost out in turns 1 2 and 3 but made it up in the chicane and hairpin, Hamilton gained a split hair's worth of time down the straights, lost a bit of time again in the chicane, but made it up back down the second straight. Hamilton gained again coming out of the chicane sequence but lost some time to Verstappen under braking for the slow right hander. After that Hamilton gained a bit of time in the 2 lefts and the final corner where Verstappen made a mistake.

The gap in qualifying was also the gap in average race pace.
But with that it is also hard to say, how much is driver preference for braking late but unsettling the car, turning in early/late, letting go of apex. etc. these are all choices/compromises. f.e. Max has no real benchmark in his teammate here but last year this was one of the 3 circuits were he was discernably slower then Ricciardo (by 1,5 tenths) so Max might not be achieving the optimal result still. Also, indeed there was a small mistake but is that really user error or is what he is trying simply not possible with the car. In fact, after Q2 Max already came on the radio saying the rear was missing grip, you could hear from his voice he already knew the battle (for pole) was lost. GianPiero hoped they could still drop some front DF but Max replied he needed all of that for turn in. In fact, I was super happy seeing him achieve P2 still in run1 in Q3. I thought he would be even more off so perhaps his lap was really 99% of optimal. We are always also just guessing at these kind of things. That is not to say I do not enjoy reading your posts and the efforts you put into the analysis done, It is just hard to make sense of it, we miss too much variables.

Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:46 pm

150+ laps today, troublefree. Let's hope this help with the RB16 and the 2020 Honda Spec 1 (solving mapping issues, because it seems the biggest issue right now)


Sieper
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Sieper » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:55 pm

can they run the spec5? Only race ran parts right?

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:30 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:47 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:55 pm
...
I'm Talking PU reliabiity not outright car performance. And if you didn't know the brand new Mercedes spec4 had a failure during the last race weekend that resulted in a total replacement.

It was all change on Valtteri Bottas’ Silver Arrow on Friday night as Mercedes were forced to fit a new power unit for the second time this weekend in Abu Dhabi, ahead of final practice…

Mercedes mechanical failures are rare, with Bottas’ engine problem in Brazil the team’s first since Austria 2018. They fitted a new internal combustion engine (ICE), turbocharger and MGU-H ahead of Friday practice, triggering a string of grid penalties that would confine him to the back of the grid.

Bottas made the most of a fresh latest spec power unit to go quickest in both 90-minute practice sessions, but it wasn’t completely smooth for the Finn as he collided clumsily with Romain Grosjean, which earned him a reprimand from the stewards.

Overnight, Mercedes discovered a pneumatic leak – which had nothing to do with the contact with Grosjean according to the team – on the fresh PU which couldn’t be fixed, so they were forced to change it again.


As a result, Bottas has taken an extra ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K and turbocharger. That triggers more penalties, but they are irrelevant given he’s already starting from the back of the pack on Sunday evening.
Don't forget that Hamilton was one of the few that made it through the season with 3 PUs. I don't think anyone else can say that. It's not like he had many retirements for other reasons that limited his mileage either.


For the top 6, Xtra PUs taken isn't as painful as a retirement from a PU problem. Look at Bottas he started from the back and still finished in the top 4.

Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:37 pm

diffuser wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:30 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:47 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:55 pm
...
I'm Talking PU reliabiity not outright car performance. And if you didn't know the brand new Mercedes spec4 had a failure during the last race weekend that resulted in a total replacement.

It was all change on Valtteri Bottas’ Silver Arrow on Friday night as Mercedes were forced to fit a new power unit for the second time this weekend in Abu Dhabi, ahead of final practice…

Mercedes mechanical failures are rare, with Bottas’ engine problem in Brazil the team’s first since Austria 2018. They fitted a new internal combustion engine (ICE), turbocharger and MGU-H ahead of Friday practice, triggering a string of grid penalties that would confine him to the back of the grid.

Bottas made the most of a fresh latest spec power unit to go quickest in both 90-minute practice sessions, but it wasn’t completely smooth for the Finn as he collided clumsily with Romain Grosjean, which earned him a reprimand from the stewards.

Overnight, Mercedes discovered a pneumatic leak – which had nothing to do with the contact with Grosjean according to the team – on the fresh PU which couldn’t be fixed, so they were forced to change it again.


As a result, Bottas has taken an extra ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K and turbocharger. That triggers more penalties, but they are irrelevant given he’s already starting from the back of the pack on Sunday evening.
Don't forget that Hamilton was one of the few that made it through the season with 3 PUs. I don't think anyone else can say that. It's not like he had many retirements for other reasons that limited his mileage either.


For the top 6, Xtra PUs taken isn't as painful as a retirement from a PU problem. Look at Bottas he started from the back and still finished in the top 4.
It won't be too bad if they take a fresh 4th unit on the right place. Being able to push more on the races, maybe it's worth finishing P6-P4 at one race with "easy" overtaking chances...

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:52 pm

Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:19 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 am
Sector 3 is not slow corners though, they're middle speed corners and require maximum downforce. Also RBR hadn't solved their low speed issues until after Barcelona. From the onboards Verstappen lost out in turns 1 2 and 3 but made it up in the chicane and hairpin, Hamilton gained a split hair's worth of time down the straights, lost a bit of time again in the chicane, but made it up back down the second straight. Hamilton gained again coming out of the chicane sequence but lost some time to Verstappen under braking for the slow right hander. After that Hamilton gained a bit of time in the 2 lefts and the final corner where Verstappen made a mistake.

The gap in qualifying was also the gap in average race pace.
But with that it is also hard to say, how much is driver preference for braking late but unsettling the car, turning in early/late, letting go of apex. etc. these are all choices/compromises. f.e. Max has no real benchmark in his teammate here but last year this was one of the 3 circuits were he was discernably slower then Ricciardo (by 1,5 tenths) so Max might not be achieving the optimal result still. Also, indeed there was a small mistake but is that really user error or is what he is trying simply not possible with the car. In fact, after Q2 Max already came on the radio saying the rear was missing grip, you could hear from his voice he already knew the battle (for pole) was lost. GianPiero hoped they could still drop some front DF but Max replied he needed all of that for turn in. In fact, I was super happy seeing him achieve P2 still in run1 in Q3. I thought he would be even more off so perhaps his lap was really 99% of optimal. We are always also just guessing at these kind of things. That is not to say I do not enjoy reading your posts and the efforts you put into the analysis done, It is just hard to make sense of it, we miss too much variables.
Mercedes was just out of reach on that track. There were a few where Mercedes has been untouchable. Melbourne, China, Barcelona, France, Great Britain, Russia, Japan, America and Abu Dhabi Mercedes just had more legs than everyone else. They were simply dominant, what characteristics do those tracks share? Sea level, a wide mixture of corner types, long straights, high speed corners, very bumpy chicanes that can cost you chunks of time. In other words those tracks test every aspect of the chassis, and in those tracks no one could even touch Mercedes. Tracks that push energy management to the maximum, no one can beat Mercedes on those tracks where you have to manage things like tires and energy. Honda is much closer on short tracks that don't put great emphasis on energy recovery. They've gotten better but aren't yet at the same level, they don't even have to beat Mercedes on those tracks specifically. Coming in second or a podium on those tracks and winning the ones you should win at(at least 5 tracks will have that opportunity) would probably be enough to win the WDC.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:12 am

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:52 pm
Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:19 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 am
Sector 3 is not slow corners though, they're middle speed corners and require maximum downforce. Also RBR hadn't solved their low speed issues until after Barcelona. From the onboards Verstappen lost out in turns 1 2 and 3 but made it up in the chicane and hairpin, Hamilton gained a split hair's worth of time down the straights, lost a bit of time again in the chicane, but made it up back down the second straight. Hamilton gained again coming out of the chicane sequence but lost some time to Verstappen under braking for the slow right hander. After that Hamilton gained a bit of time in the 2 lefts and the final corner where Verstappen made a mistake.

The gap in qualifying was also the gap in average race pace.
But with that it is also hard to say, how much is driver preference for braking late but unsettling the car, turning in early/late, letting go of apex. etc. these are all choices/compromises. f.e. Max has no real benchmark in his teammate here but last year this was one of the 3 circuits were he was discernably slower then Ricciardo (by 1,5 tenths) so Max might not be achieving the optimal result still. Also, indeed there was a small mistake but is that really user error or is what he is trying simply not possible with the car. In fact, after Q2 Max already came on the radio saying the rear was missing grip, you could hear from his voice he already knew the battle (for pole) was lost. GianPiero hoped they could still drop some front DF but Max replied he needed all of that for turn in. In fact, I was super happy seeing him achieve P2 still in run1 in Q3. I thought he would be even more off so perhaps his lap was really 99% of optimal. We are always also just guessing at these kind of things. That is not to say I do not enjoy reading your posts and the efforts you put into the analysis done, It is just hard to make sense of it, we miss too much variables.
Mercedes was just out of reach on that track. There were a few where Mercedes has been untouchable. Melbourne, China, Barcelona, France, Great Britain, Russia, Japan, America and Abu Dhabi Mercedes just had more legs than everyone else. They were simply dominant, what characteristics do those tracks share? Sea level, a wide mixture of corner types, long straights, high speed corners, very bumpy chicanes that can cost you chunks of time. In other words those tracks test every aspect of the chassis, and in those tracks no one could even touch Mercedes. Tracks that push energy management to the maximum, no one can beat Mercedes on those tracks where you have to manage things like tires and energy. Honda is much closer on short tracks that don't put great emphasis on energy recovery. They've gotten better but aren't yet at the same level, they don't even have to beat Mercedes on those tracks specifically. Coming in second or a podium on those tracks and winning the ones you should win at(at least 5 tracks will have that opportunity) would probably be enough to win the WDC.
They have Gobs of DF. Makes their tires last longer, they can take a limited amount off when they need too and they have at a min the same Bulk HP with still the most efficient PU.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:29 am

Juzh wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:04 pm
Verstappen's q3 lap 1.35.139
https://streamable.com/17bu2
https://streamable.com/17bu2

vs leclerc
https://streamable.com/ail91
https://streamable.com/ail91

I'll do side by side with hamilton a bit later.
Almost equal in both corners and straights, Verstappen is even a tenth in front halfway down the long straight. But Hamilton just nails the 90 degree corners in last sector.

Bill
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:51 am

So Rbr Honda won Austin and Brazil because tracks were shorter not because of high altitude , these one takes the cake. How about Monaco and Hungary. Making big claims without data to back that up is just an opinion at best at worst is bullshit.spa the longest track what happened to merc divine energy management. Redbull has already acknowledged the shortcomings of their car no one should claim to be their spin doctor it's unnecessary and tedious.

McMika98
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by McMika98 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:58 am

Blah blah blah. The season is over, so please stop the guesswork and speculation. Fact is the Redbull chassis was never a match for Mercedes. Cant see where they will make the gains next year.

Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:22 am

Race pace

Image

Sectors

Image

Stint 1

Image

Stint 2

Image

Stint 3

Image

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:11 pm

Google translate:
F.1 technical analysis by Giorgio Piola
Red Bull: experimental suspension for the 2020 tires?

On Tuesday in the first hour of the Pirelli test in Abu Dhabi, when changes were permitted for data collection, Verstappen's RB15 tried a front suspension with a more protruding bracket for better use of the 2020 tires.

The Milton Keynes technicians, in fact, have shortened the push rod strut by lengthening the bracket that allows you to change the fulcrum point on which the carbon lever acts, below to the left photo, while on the right photo you can see the kinematics used in the last GP .

Very probably the intervention will be necessary to adapt the suspension to the characteristics of the 2020 tires which have a decidedly different behavior than the tires of this year.

Red Bull Racing RB15, detail of suspension with bracket

Image

Red Bull Racing RB15, detail of the usual front suspension


Image
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-re ... 0/4606596/

English GTrans. https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 4606596%2F