Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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Mark4211
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Annotated Wheel Adjustments: Mercedes Race Start Procedures - Testing 2020

https://streamable.com/5avmda

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Presumably because it's not an actual up change but a part of the bite point finder programme.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Mark4211
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Mercedes W11

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:24 pm
Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Presumably because it's not an actual up change but a part of the bite point finder programme.
The upshift delay occurs for 2 instances, 1 during BPF execution and 1 more after the BPF for actual launch

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:26 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:24 pm
Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Presumably because it's not an actual up change but a part of the bite point finder programme.
The upshift delay occurs for 2 instances, 1 during BPF execution and 1 more after the BPF for actual launch
But it's still not a real up change, is it? It's part of a clutch/start setting up procedure. So the driver isn't requesting an up change (as mentioned in the regulation you quoted) but carrying out a set up procedure.

Once he's on track, the changes are in accordance with the driver's paddle requests.

Also, one could say that selecting first gear from neutral isn't an up change. It's "putting it in gear". First to second or second to first are " gear changes ". Neutral isn't a gear so in or out of neutral isn't a gear change.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

b2bL44
b2bL44
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Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 pm
erudite450 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:22 pm
zibby43, finally we are going racing. What do you reckon the pace will be like this weekend? I hope Mercedes shuts everyone up. I'm getting sick of the constant chatter about the Redbull Ring and Hungaroring favouring Verstappen-Redbull package over the last few weeks. Frankly, I hope Mercedes send them to the cleaners.
It’s race week! It’s been such a surreal wait for the season start, but so happy for all the teams (and us fans) that there’s something to look forward to again amidst all the madness and tragedy.

I think RBR has a chance to be very strong. They’re usually slow starters to the season, but with the delayed start, maybe they’ve gotten that out of their system. They’re also typically strong in Austria, but that’s mostly because Merc have dropped the ball reliability-wise in Austria in ‘18 (double DNF - hydraulics) and ‘19 (the overheating lift and coast race).

Marko reckons Merc are “slightly ahead.” He also said Merc was the 3rd-best car after ‘18 pre-season testing. If there’s anything I’ve learned in the hybrid era, it’s never doubt Merc’s ability to unleash a little shock and awe at the first race of the season.
Underestimate RBR at your own peril. Mark Hughes has stated that in 2019, dismissing the "not cheating" :roll: Ferrari, the remaining power unit manufacturers had 9hp between them in difference. Yes a user here has told us that Merc has gained more power out of the PU since the start of the hybrid era in 2014, we have yet to see that performance on track. All whilst Honda continued to work away while Mercedes HPP was in lockdown.

I'm expecting a close fight, what's more is that I expect Max to be just as aggressive and we'll get to see how Lewis reacts to that. Gloves off boys!

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siskue2005
181
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Annotated Wheel Adjustments: Mercedes Race Start Procedures - Testing 2020
https://twitter.com/AnnotatedWA/status/ ... 0167021569
https://streamable.com/5avmda

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Brake warmer switch ON? can there be a swtich like that? isnt that iilegal? or is it just a ERS mode?

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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b2bL44 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:09 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 pm
erudite450 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:22 pm
zibby43, finally we are going racing. What do you reckon the pace will be like this weekend? I hope Mercedes shuts everyone up. I'm getting sick of the constant chatter about the Redbull Ring and Hungaroring favouring Verstappen-Redbull package over the last few weeks. Frankly, I hope Mercedes send them to the cleaners.
It’s race week! It’s been such a surreal wait for the season start, but so happy for all the teams (and us fans) that there’s something to look forward to again amidst all the madness and tragedy.

I think RBR has a chance to be very strong. They’re usually slow starters to the season, but with the delayed start, maybe they’ve gotten that out of their system. They’re also typically strong in Austria, but that’s mostly because Merc have dropped the ball reliability-wise in Austria in ‘18 (double DNF - hydraulics) and ‘19 (the overheating lift and coast race).

Marko reckons Merc are “slightly ahead.” He also said Merc was the 3rd-best car after ‘18 pre-season testing. If there’s anything I’ve learned in the hybrid era, it’s never doubt Merc’s ability to unleash a little shock and awe at the first race of the season.
Underestimate RBR at your own peril. Mark Hughes has stated that in 2019, dismissing the "not cheating" :roll: Ferrari, the remaining power unit manufacturers had 9hp between them in difference. Yes a user here has told us that Merc has gained more power out of the PU since the start of the hybrid era in 2014, we have yet to see that performance on track. All whilst Honda continued to work away while Mercedes HPP was in lockdown.

I'm expecting a close fight, what's more is that I expect Max to be just as aggressive and we'll get to see how Lewis reacts to that. Gloves off boys!
Merc does get a new fuel for Austria. It's supposed to provide both power and reliability benefits.

At this late stage in PU development, fuels are a huge performance variable, as both Ferrari (with Shell) and RBR (with Exxon) demonstrated on multiple occasions last year.

I think that Brixworth was only shut down for 3 weeks during the down period (as mandated by F1). I know they also produced breathing aid devices. I'm guessing that aside from the mandatory shutdown, the PUs were running on the dynos.

mkay
mkay
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Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:06 am
b2bL44 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:09 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 pm


It’s race week! It’s been such a surreal wait for the season start, but so happy for all the teams (and us fans) that there’s something to look forward to again amidst all the madness and tragedy.

I think RBR has a chance to be very strong. They’re usually slow starters to the season, but with the delayed start, maybe they’ve gotten that out of their system. They’re also typically strong in Austria, but that’s mostly because Merc have dropped the ball reliability-wise in Austria in ‘18 (double DNF - hydraulics) and ‘19 (the overheating lift and coast race).

Marko reckons Merc are “slightly ahead.” He also said Merc was the 3rd-best car after ‘18 pre-season testing. If there’s anything I’ve learned in the hybrid era, it’s never doubt Merc’s ability to unleash a little shock and awe at the first race of the season.
Underestimate RBR at your own peril. Mark Hughes has stated that in 2019, dismissing the "not cheating" :roll: Ferrari, the remaining power unit manufacturers had 9hp between them in difference. Yes a user here has told us that Merc has gained more power out of the PU since the start of the hybrid era in 2014, we have yet to see that performance on track. All whilst Honda continued to work away while Mercedes HPP was in lockdown.

I'm expecting a close fight, what's more is that I expect Max to be just as aggressive and we'll get to see how Lewis reacts to that. Gloves off boys!
Merc does get a new fuel for Austria. It's supposed to provide both power and reliability benefits.

At this late stage in PU development, fuels are a huge performance variable, as both Ferrari (with Shell) and RBR (with Exxon) demonstrated on multiple occasions last year.

I think that Brixworth was only shut down for 3 weeks during the down period (as mandated by F1). I know they also produced breathing aid devices. I'm guessing that aside from the mandatory shutdown, the PUs were running on the dynos.
Source for the new fuel? First I've heard of it.

In fact, Mercedes has been pretty mum on upgrades for Austria...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
625
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 am
Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Annotated Wheel Adjustments: Mercedes Race Start Procedures - Testing 2020
https://twitter.com/AnnotatedWA/status/ ... 0167021569
https://streamable.com/5avmda

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Brake warmer switch ON? can there be a swtich like that? isnt that iilegal? or is it just a ERS mode?
According to the note on the video, this sets the brake balance to 75% front - which is very, very far forward. The driver's normally only adjust the balance by a few % during a lap, so having a button that does that huge change for them seems sensible, rather than the driver sitting there pressing the + button 25 times, and then the - button 25 times to get it back to normal.

I would guess with the brake balance that far forward, they just ride the pedal gently to get brake temps up without overworking the rear brakes.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
625
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

b2bL44 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:09 am


I'm expecting a close fight, what's more is that I expect Max to be just as aggressive and we'll get to see how Lewis reacts to that. Gloves off boys!
I hope Max doesn't resort to bumper car tactics. Hard, but clean, is what we want. Just chucking it in and saying "let me through or we crash" is not what is needed/wanted. There's no great skill in that, really. Indeed, the skill is in the other guy not getting hit.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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siskue2005
181
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:23 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 am
Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Annotated Wheel Adjustments: Mercedes Race Start Procedures - Testing 2020
https://twitter.com/AnnotatedWA/status/ ... 0167021569
https://streamable.com/5avmda

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Brake warmer switch ON? can there be a swtich like that? isnt that iilegal? or is it just a ERS mode?
According to the note on the video, this sets the brake balance to 75% front - which is very, very far forward. The driver's normally only adjust the balance by a few % during a lap, so having a button that does that huge change for them seems sensible, rather than the driver sitting there pressing the + button 25 times, and then the - button 25 times to get it back to normal.

I would guess with the brake balance that far forward, they just ride the pedal gently to get brake temps up without overworking the rear brakes.
Ah, ok makes sense now

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:23 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 am
Mark4211 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Annotated Wheel Adjustments: Mercedes Race Start Procedures - Testing 2020
https://twitter.com/AnnotatedWA/status/ ... 0167021569
https://streamable.com/5avmda

How are Mercedes able to delay the upshift for 3 seconds?
Article 9.8.4 - The maximum permitted delay for the [upshift] is 80ms from the time of the driver request to the original gear being disengaged.
Brake warmer switch ON? can there be a swtich like that? isnt that iilegal? or is it just a ERS mode?
According to the note on the video, this sets the brake balance to 75% front - which is very, very far forward. The driver's normally only adjust the balance by a few % during a lap, so having a button that does that huge change for them seems sensible, rather than the driver sitting there pressing the + button 25 times, and then the - button 25 times to get it back to normal.

I would guess with the brake balance that far forward, they just ride the pedal gently to get brake temps up without overworking the rear brakes.
Is there a regulation which specifically bans a line lock type device for the brakes?

basti313
basti313
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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

b2bL44 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:09 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 pm
erudite450 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:22 pm
zibby43, finally we are going racing. What do you reckon the pace will be like this weekend? I hope Mercedes shuts everyone up. I'm getting sick of the constant chatter about the Redbull Ring and Hungaroring favouring Verstappen-Redbull package over the last few weeks. Frankly, I hope Mercedes send them to the cleaners.
It’s race week! It’s been such a surreal wait for the season start, but so happy for all the teams (and us fans) that there’s something to look forward to again amidst all the madness and tragedy.

I think RBR has a chance to be very strong. They’re usually slow starters to the season, but with the delayed start, maybe they’ve gotten that out of their system. They’re also typically strong in Austria, but that’s mostly because Merc have dropped the ball reliability-wise in Austria in ‘18 (double DNF - hydraulics) and ‘19 (the overheating lift and coast race).

Marko reckons Merc are “slightly ahead.” He also said Merc was the 3rd-best car after ‘18 pre-season testing. If there’s anything I’ve learned in the hybrid era, it’s never doubt Merc’s ability to unleash a little shock and awe at the first race of the season.
Underestimate RBR at your own peril. Mark Hughes has stated that in 2019, dismissing the "not cheating" :roll: Ferrari, the remaining power unit manufacturers had 9hp between them in difference. Yes a user here has told us that Merc has gained more power out of the PU since the start of the hybrid era in 2014, we have yet to see that performance on track. All whilst Honda continued to work away while Mercedes HPP was in lockdown.

I'm expecting a close fight, what's more is that I expect Max to be just as aggressive and we'll get to see how Lewis reacts to that. Gloves off boys!
The problem is: "we have yet to see that performance on track"
Last year the Merc was running with a turned down engine nearly all the time. Otherwise the big reliability and runtime is not explainable. Even in the first half they could run one race more on the engine than the others.
We could see glimpses of the possible power at instances where they were desperate to win like Spa or Monza when chasing Lec. I think we never saw a real party mode in Q last year. Compared to other seasons the Q3 gain by Merc was little.

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Engine talk in the engine thread please
#AeroFrodo

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

Post

mkay wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:55 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:06 am
b2bL44 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:09 am


Underestimate RBR at your own peril. Mark Hughes has stated that in 2019, dismissing the "not cheating" :roll: Ferrari, the remaining power unit manufacturers had 9hp between them in difference. Yes a user here has told us that Merc has gained more power out of the PU since the start of the hybrid era in 2014, we have yet to see that performance on track. All whilst Honda continued to work away while Mercedes HPP was in lockdown.

I'm expecting a close fight, what's more is that I expect Max to be just as aggressive and we'll get to see how Lewis reacts to that. Gloves off boys!
Merc does get a new fuel for Austria. It's supposed to provide both power and reliability benefits.

At this late stage in PU development, fuels are a huge performance variable, as both Ferrari (with Shell) and RBR (with Exxon) demonstrated on multiple occasions last year.

I think that Brixworth was only shut down for 3 weeks during the down period (as mandated by F1). I know they also produced breathing aid devices. I'm guessing that aside from the mandatory shutdown, the PUs were running on the dynos.
Source for the new fuel? First I've heard of it.

In fact, Mercedes has been pretty mum on upgrades for Austria...
AMuS. Large aero package, too (via AMuS, and confirmed by Allison in recent video by Merc).