[ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Unf
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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El Scorchio wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 21:56
You’re looking for things that aren’t there.
It seems like that, beacuse all of you pretends to not know that some decisions are made behind the scene. Do you really think that my point is to take Toto Wolf to press conference and force him to say "yes, Bottas is driver number two"? Even I am not that stupid ;)

Gossips says that when Alonso had stopped Hamilton in Hungarian GP in 2007, after that Ron Dennis said to him something like "you can do whatever you want and being as fast as you can - you will not win WDC with us" - you know what I mean now?

If Mercedes don't want to let Bottas be a champion they can do it in hundred ways to make his life harder - but OF COURSE they will do it in white gloves.

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El Scorchio
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Unf wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 22:12
El Scorchio wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 21:56
You’re looking for things that aren’t there.
It seems like that, beacuse all of you pretends to not know that some decisions are made behind the scene. Do you really think that my point is to take Toto Wolf to press conference and force him to say "yes, Bottas is driver number two"? Even I am not that stupid ;)

Gossips says that when Alonso had stopped Hamilton in Hungarian GP in 2007, after that Ron Dennis said to him something like "you can do whatever you want and being as fast as you can - you will not win WDC with us" - you know what I mean now?

If Mercedes don't want to let Bottas be a champion they can do it in hundred ways to make his life harder - but OF COURSE they will do it in white gloves.
Key word in your post being GOSSIP. That’s all you seem to be able to offer. Totally unsubstantiated gossip and conjecture.

Feel free to share something of value And substance if you ever find it.

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Unf wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 16:32
If you still think that he is not treated as driver no 2 - I'm done.
Good. You make no contribution of any value. You add no evidence, no facts or detail. You ignore every point that disproves what you are saying and make up whatever is needed to 'prove' your irrational belief.

You clearly will never accept any direct evidence that would threaten your conspiracy theory as it would undermine your irrational dislike.

And you clearly have not a shred of direct evidence to persuade the rest of us. So any post you make is pointless.

If you are 'done', then stop wasting our time and yours. This is a technical forum. Not a flat-earther website.

e30ernest
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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When I saw Lewis being left out longer to get a tire offset to Max and Bottas, I instantly thought Unf would be posting here about Bottas being the #2 driver. I was not disappointed. :D

It's hard to argue with anyone who is hell-bent on believing a conspiracy they've concluded in their minds to be true. Basically the same reason why flat earthers exist. :D

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Phil
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I felt for Bottas in this race and he was unlucky enough that the ideal strategy (for the win) ended up being worse than the reactive strategy that Lewis was on as a consequence for not being in the lead. Sometimes, it just ends up this way. It was the right call for the team to make, because a safety car would have netted them the win (while Lewis was staying out long in the second stint), but it didn't happen. In the end, what gave Lewis the 2nd place was his strong stint on worn out tires before coming in for the 2nd time. This gave him the tire offset. It also could have gone the other way with him losing too much time and then falling back further.

The only thing I question is why Bottas didn't stay out when Max came into the pits for the 2nd time. He also could have stayed out and that would have secured him 2nd place as Mercedes then would have given up on the win and focused on the team internal battle.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 11:17
The only thing I question is why Bottas didn't stay out when Max came into the pits for the 2nd time. He also could have stayed out and that would have secured him 2nd place as Mercedes then would have given up on the win and focused on the team internal battle.
That was an odd one, I haven't seen the onboards to see how much warning Bottas had but I also suspect Mercedes didn't expect Verstappen to pit so soon after his first stop so it possibly caught both driver and team by surprise.

I've not had time to look into it yet, but I'm interested to check how much time Hamilton dropped to Bottas at the end of the first stint, when he had Verstappen right behind him. Was that Bottas pulling away? Or Hamilton dropping time defending lines? Or just Hamilton's tyres going off from following Bottas? (Likely some combination of the three but it should be observable).

It'll also be interesting to see just how much Verstappen seemed to have over them in that first stint vs the Mercedes second and third stints (fuel/track changes included).

erudite450
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Unf wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 21:54
subcritical71 wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 21:12
Unf wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 20:24
Let them "race" when Bottas had 10 laps older tyres? You are joking, right?

By that philosophy they shouldn’t have been racing Verstappen either... so all was lost anyway.
What? You pointed that Mercedes allowed Bottas and Hamilton to race each other and that is the evidence that they don't prefer Lewis as a driver no 1. Beacuse there was no "Valtteri it's James" case.

So again - saying that they are equally treated, cause they were allowed to race each other looks like bad joke while Bottas had 10 laps older tyres and cause of that literally no chance to fight against prince Hamilton.
Of course, you have selective amnesia so you've already forgotten about Bottas benefiting from a similar strategy in Monza last year even though Hamilton was the lead car. Bottas was allowed to stay out for longer while Hamilton's race was sacrificed to try and beat Leclerc. In case you've forgotten, Bottas on fresher tyres in the end beat Hamilton and should have beat Leclerc as well if not for his weak nature in combat. I guess one could have drawn the conclusion after that race that Hamilton is the number 2 driver at Mercedes

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Phil
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Wynters wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 12:19
I've not had time to look into it yet, but I'm interested to check how much time Hamilton dropped to Bottas at the end of the first stint, when he had Verstappen right behind him. Was that Bottas pulling away? Or Hamilton dropping time defending lines? Or just Hamilton's tyres going off from following Bottas? (Likely some combination of the three but it should be observable).
I'm not sure. I don't think it was much, but it was Hamiltons tires that went off and he called it in and then Mercedes reacted by pitting Bottas first. Hamilton was forced to run a lap longer like that and defend Max. In the end, I think he came out 3-4 seconds behind Bottas, but with Leclerc in between them. He then closed that gap. He only started to really drop away from Bottas towards the end of that second stint, but not enough to retain the lead with that 10s gap when both Bottas and Verstappen pitted the 2nd time.

I just think the whole race was a classic case of strategy going wrong and realizing that they were out of a fight with Verstappen. Once this was clear, from Bottas position, the aim should have been to defend his strategy vs. Hamilton rather than pursuit a win that wasn't possible. But can't blame them for trying.

There was a point, where I thought Mercedes would risk Hamilton's safe 3rd place for a potential win by leaving him out on a 1-stop with that 8-9 second gap to Verstappen. But in the end, Max was able to significantly up his pace (when prompted to) which then made it a no-brainer to bring him in for a short 10-lap stint on brand new hards.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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e30ernest
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 13:58
I just think the whole race was a classic case of strategy going wrong and realizing that they were out of a fight with Verstappen. Once this was clear, from Bottas position, the aim should have been to defend his strategy vs. Hamilton rather than pursuit a win that wasn't possible. But can't blame them for trying.
Yeah I think Mercedes got so used to winning, that that is their whole focus. Sometimes that could be good, but in this case, going for the win backfired.
Phil wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 13:58
There was a point, where I thought Mercedes would risk Hamilton's safe 3rd place for a potential win by leaving him out on a 1-stop with that 8-9 second gap to Verstappen. But in the end, Max was able to significantly up his pace (when prompted to) which then made it a no-brainer to bring him in for a short 10-lap stint on brand new hards.
I don't think a 1-stop was ever in the cards for Hamilton. Even if Verstappen did not have the pace to close in fast enough to give him a few laps to attempt a pass, the tires could have been dangerously blistered. Also, then that would have been truly unfair to Bottas.

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Phil
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Unfair to Bottas it may have been, but Mercedes has always been quite consistent from 2013 on that a win and the team-result is always priority over what the drivers themselves want. In other words, if driver B can grab a win, even at the expense of driver A, so be it and vice versa. So if Hamilton could win by "lucking" into a strategy that could have made it work (and a Safetycar would have), then that's just roll of the dice.

Mercedes advantage over RedBull is, is that both drivers are in contention for wins and both can be used to shuffle the strategy if needed to, to put the pressure on. It wasn't much different last year at Monza, when Hamilton was fighting for the win but couldn't get past, then overcooked his tires and then Bottas came and he didn't resist an overtake and Bottas was given the chance to fight for the win. Hamilton finished 3rd and Bottas 2nd that race, even though arguably, both were in contention for the WDC and competitors to each other.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Morteza
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

e30ernest
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 14:57
Unfair to Bottas it may have been, but Mercedes has always been quite consistent from 2013 on that a win and the team-result is always priority over what the drivers themselves want. In other words, if driver B can grab a win, even at the expense of driver A, so be it and vice versa. So if Hamilton could win by "lucking" into a strategy that could have made it work (and a Safetycar would have), then that's just roll of the dice.

Mercedes advantage over RedBull is, is that both drivers are in contention for wins and both can be used to shuffle the strategy if needed to, to put the pressure on. It wasn't much different last year at Monza, when Hamilton was fighting for the win but couldn't get past, then overcooked his tires and then Bottas came and he didn't resist an overtake and Bottas was given the chance to fight for the win. Hamilton finished 3rd and Bottas 2nd that race, even though arguably, both were in contention for the WDC and competitors to each other.
Yeah I agree with you. Mercedes has always shown that it would prioritize the highest possible team position over the wants of a single driver. Both Bottas and Lewis (and Rosberg) have been on either end of that.

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Unf
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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e30ernest wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 02:19
When I saw Lewis being left out longer to get a tire offset to Max and Bottas, I instantly thought Unf would be posting here about Bottas being the #2 driver. I was not disappointed. :D
I'm glad that you immidiately felt what happened there.

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Looking at the three lead cars there are a few interesting things that come out. Not much that wasn't apparent though so this will be more of a commentary than a strict analysis. I apologise for the walls of text, I've tried to make the important stuff easier to pull out. Feedback always welcome though!


Verstappen did well off the start, holding the gap to the next Mercedes better than pretty much all season (1.451 here, 1.549 last weekend, 2.879 in Styria and 2.047 in Austria). For the first four laps, the Mercedes are pushing and racing each other. They add half a second to their lead over Verstappen each lap, business as usual, basically.

But, tail end of lap 4, Hamilton begins to ease off and this is where it becomes apparent that Mercedes have got a fight on their hands (reminder, they are on the Medium whilst Verstappen is on the Hard). For the next seven laps, Verstappen takes time out of both Mercedes, even Bottas in clear air. Over those seven laps, he takes an average of 0.236 seconds out of Bottas (and slightly more out of Hamilton). It's not clear whether Bottas is holding Hamilton up (the gap hovers at just over a second but that might just be both Mercedes being tyre limited at this point).

It's in the middle of this seven lap 'reel in' that Mercedes start, not just losing time to Verstappen, but going slower than the lap before. This, of course, impacts Verstappen (Hamilton slowing, slows Verstappen in turn). Mercedes pit Bottas on 13 (he's a second a lap slower than he was on lap 4).

Hamilton pits the next lap, staying out losing him about 3/10ths on Bottas, and this frees Verstappen who proves that his slow pace was due to being held up by immediately slipping from mid-32s to high 31s. The four laps after Hamilton pits (laps 16-19) Verstappen averages 1:31.816. Compared to the Mercedes' laps 2-5 pace of 1:31.79... Yes, lighter fuel but Mercedes were pushing each other and on much better tyres at that stage.

This is a good time to push, because that's what the Mercs are doing on their New Hard tyres. Bottas comes out hot and averages a 1:31.285 whilst Hamilton eases into his stint a little more (.5 slower on his out lap) and average 1:31.515. I suspect this premature push is where Bottas loses second to Hamilton, although it won't become clear for a while. I suspect that the extra heat he pumps into the tyres here hurts his pace and cripples his stint length.

And then it becomes clear that Mercedes don't have a fight on their hands. They've already lost. The next eights laps for the two Mercedes drivers are a 1:32.197 (VB) and a 1:32.476 (LH) average. Verstappen's eight laps? 1:31.455. Race. Won. I'm pretty sure Hamilton is already thinking about trying to beat Bottas at this point. Midway through that stint, once it's obvious Verstappen has this, he eases off, really cooling the tyres, then handles them slightly more gently than Bottas.

Verstappen pits for New Mediums on lap 27. Bottas pushes hard. Hamilton pushes a little. Verstappen gets Bottas immediately, despite a slow stop (and would have got him easily, despite what Bottas said in the interviews afterwards).

Then both Verstappen and Bottas pit on lap 32. I think Verstappen pitting caught Mercedes by surprise here. Certainly, it didn't look like Verstappen was running the pace of such a short stint. But, if we remember how quickly the Used Mediums of the Mercedes went off, maybe this was about as fast a stint as could be safely run. I'd love to know if anyone has radio or onboard of Verstappen's in lap? I've a suspicion that he dived into the pits, catching Mercedes by surprise.

Over the next eleven laps, Verstappen stretches his lead to a comfortable 5 seconds (and goes on, increasing it until he wins).

Meanwhile, in the other Mercedes, Bottas is taking 2/10ths out of Hamilton each lap but Hamilton's 26 lap stint is actually slightly faster than Bottas 18 lap stint (LH started one lap later). Hamilton pits (it's a slow stop, costing him 1.2 seconds on Bottas), comes out, sets his fastest lap of the race (a 1:28.451 on lap 43). Bottas has been doing 1:30.6s for a few laps and this sudden injection of pace clearly comes as a surprise. It takes him until the next lap to respond, doing his own fastest lap of the race (a 1:29.765 on lap 44). He can't maintain it though, and as his pace lifts into the 1:30s Hamilton dips in and out of the 1:28s.

Lap 46, a bored Verstappen, clearly not worried about a safety car, puts in his fastest lap, a 1:29.465. On the same lap, Albon puts in his fastest (a 1:29.477, on tyres 2 laps older). This, to me, suggests that Verstappen has more pace in hand and that his next two laps are 1:29.5s suggests that he didn't take everything out of the tyres that he could have. This is actually the only point I can see where I think Verstappen could have improved this race. With seven laps to go and with Hamilton on much fresher tyres, this is a bit of a gamble. A safety car with a DAS-equipped Mercedes right behind you on tyres 1/3rd the age of yours...it feels like an unnecessary risk. To be fair, Verstappen clearly had some more in reserve but I wish he'd waited until lap 50 or 51.

The last couple of laps, everyone eases off (especially the Mercedes).

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Morteza
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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